Policing. Police. Black Lives Matter. Corruption. Anger. And Racism. We’ll be discussing it and more … on this edition of Frank Relationships.
FRANK RELATIONSHIPS: POLICE AND POLICING WITH SGT. GRANT PRESSLEY, JR
Guests: Sgt. Grant Pressley, Jr
Date: July 18, 2016
Frank: Policing. Police. Black Lives Matter. Corruption. Anger. And Racism. We’ll be discussing it and more… on this edition of Frank Relationships.
Yeah as always, those are my babies. Thanks for getting daddy’s daughter today.
Serge, what’s your greatest fear when you hit the streets as a police officer each day?
Sgt. Pressley: Not coming home.
Frank: Now that’s the same fear that I have when I walk out of the house. What’s the difference between you and me? And I just run a radio show…
Sgt. Pressley: I wear a uniform with a badge and I’m marked in blue… And due to so many things happening with police officers, brutality and other issues, a lot of people resent the police. And that concerns me.
Frank: Is there resentment towards the police because of things that the police do or do people resent the police because they just exist?
Sgt. Pressley: Because of things that police officers do.
Frank: And when are you most satisfied at the end of the work day?
Sgt. Pressley: Coming home and knowing that I did the best I could do that day.
Frank: It’s funny because my concept—I’m not a police officer, never been one—but my concept around and answer to that question is when I didn’t need to do anything. To me, that would be what an ideal day for a police officer would be.
Nancy: You mean you didn’t have to arrest anybody…?
Frank: Didn’t have t do anything. Just nothing. Got no calls, no problems, no nothing. Like that seems like the ideal day for a police officer.
Nancy: Peace in the streets
Sgt. Pressley: And that certainly is. Every day I hope that all my days are like that.
Frank: Welcome to Frank Relationships, a show for you my brethren who like me, are too young to be considered old and too old to be considered young. It’s also for those of you that love and support us. We’re here to provide weekly wisdom, conversation and the information that’ll help create a loving and flexible relationship, parents and partners.
I’m Frank Love and you can find me, my blog and my various social media incarnations at franklove.com.
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Greetings to my co-host, Nancy.
Nancy: Hi, Frank.
Frank: Nancy Goldring, the consummate generalist.
Nancy: Ha-ha. We’re also joined by today’s visiting co-host, Carl Thomas. Greetings, Carl.
Carl: Good morning.
Frank: Who are you and what do you do when you aren’t guest co-hosting?
Carl: I’m Carl Thomas. I am a father of 3, a husband. I run a workforce development company specializing in national certifications, CDO, heavy equipment operator, fire [unclear] delivery, drone and [unclear] regulatory training, etc.
Carl: 38 different certifications.
Frank: Very nice. And this is in, what? Locality.
Carl: By Cindy Sy, our actual service location is in [unclear] it’s out of D.C. we’re right across the street from [unclear] Metro as well. So from a convenience standpoint, we’re right where we want to be. We’re able to serve D.C., Maryland and Virginia. We’re also a mile and a half from 495. So…
Frank: Is it for adults?
Carl: It is for 18 and up.
Frank: 18 and up.
Carl: Yeah. 1800.
Frank: Is there a cost?
Carl: Negative. We actually don’t even have a pay structure that we can take from an individual. I mean, we will work something out if they wanted to—
Frank: Pay you?
Carl: —but in general, we try to get the government to pay for these valuable services in order to reach the most necessary people.
Frank: Very nice. I have a very important question I want to run by you guys and see what feedback you can give me. I need your assistance. I’m having an issue and I’m trying to figure why people constantly are calling me an Adonis.
Jeff: Because you’re hanging out in the same asylum.
Nancy: Thank you, Jeff.
Carl: That was a good [unclear].
Nancy: Thank you Jeff. I just want to come back next week and my answer that possibility…
Carl: I was thinking the same thing.
Frank: Okay, alright. You guys… ya’ll go back to sleep. Leave me alone. You’ve added no value—
Jeff: Here’s the motivation of that question because for your age, you’re actually in good shape…
Nancy: [unclear] please…
Jeff: …and you’re an attractive guy—I mean, I don’t know. You’re just that arrogant.
Frank: It’s something that’s puzzling me. I mean, people keep asking me why I’m just gorgeous.
Nancy: Oh wow…
Jeff: You were kissed by night by god.
Nancy: Which god?
Frank: Ahh… that might do it.
Nancy: I’m believing it totally alone.
Frank: as is the case this week with Carl, there’s a visiting guest co-host chair available each week in the studio. If you’re in the Washington D.C. area or travelling to the D.C. area and want to join us in the studio on a given Thursday morning, email me at email@example.com and let me know.
Nancy: Just so you know, I have a brother named Adonis. Clearly, I need to bring him in.
Frank: There can only be one.
Nancy: You’ll be Frank that week. Go on.
Carl: Yeah, Frank this week [unclear] just for the record.
Frank: Thank you.
Carl: No problem.
Frank: We got a special guest today that’ll help us develop and understanding of a police officer. Today’s guest is served as a member of the Canton Police Department for 34 years and has undoubtedly seen his share of victims and violators.
We’re talking with him about a day in the life of an officer at a time when officer-involved shootings are more and more scrutinized. The recent killing of 5 police officers in Dallas has stirred sadness, outrage and indifference.
Did you see Obama’s?
Nancy: Yes, only a part of it.
Frank: I thought he did a great job.
Nancy: Yes he did.
Frank: And I say that having not heard what any other pundits are saying. I haven’t talked to anybody about it I just watched it…
Frank: Some of it and I thought he did a very good job.
Nancy: I did also.
Carl: The Dallas Memorial or—
Carl: in response [unclear]?
Nancy: At the Dallas Memorial.
Carl: At the Dallas Memorial was very, very appropriate. I thought it was a little soft initially… And I thought his comments were soft, first offer comments after the first [unclear]… But Dallas I thought was a fine line that he tricked that was appropriate.
Carl: Yeah, it was impressive, actually.
Carl: That’s what 7 ½ years of presidency does.
Frank: Yeah, on your way out.
Nancy: Refined you.
Frank: Does the violence stem from abuses of power by law enforcement? Is it the lack of awareness of the appropriate protocols, attitudes and behaviors when dealing with police? I’m not sure but if you, my wonderful listeners want to learn what a police officer sees as he patrols the streets, whether the answer to crime is more police officers and how we can gain a more compassionate perspective on the challenges that come with being a citizen and a police officer, then stay tuned as you Frank Relationships Team talk about the various issues pertaining to police and policing as Sgt. Grant Pressley, Jr. graciously shares his experience and commentary.
Welcome to the show.
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah, it’s great to be here.
Frank: Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Before we get too deep in today’s subject matter, I want to check in to see what’s going on in the news. Anybody got an interesting this or that’s around relationships in the news? Serge, please don’t be bashful. We want your thoughts too as we get—I mean, you may want to thrown out something out there right now but as we get to postulate… What you got, Nancy?
Nancy: What is this one-armed hug business?
Frank: Do you know—are you serious?
Nancy: I’m asking you. What is that?
Frank: You heard me talk about this already but do you know Carl?
Nancy: I don’t think so.
Frank: I can’t—I’m like—what the heck? Do you see people giving each other one-arm hugs now?
Nancy: Yeah… I’ve had a couple but I always thought because the other person was either like on-the-run or had something in their hand.
Frank: Well if you got something in your hand, it’s not applicable.
Nancy: Right, right.
Frank: We seem to like… it’s not the man-hug where you… you know, you shake in each other’s hand and then you go in with the other hand and give each other a hug. It’s the literally just one arm hug.
Carl: A half hug.
Frank: A half hug!
Frank: What the—I don’t understand. Where did this come from?
Nancy: I definitely don’t know. It takes the church hug to another level. Atleast with the church are you getting two arms.
Frank: What’s the church hug?
Nancy: Well that’s where you kind of…
Carl: Tap their back twice.
Nancy: Well no, you don’t tap them. You just lightly embrace them with your lower extremities, a fair distance away from the other person…
Frank: Wow… okay…
Nancy: You keep it green and clean, I guess. So it’s like friendly but definitely is… it’s friendly and yet it’s designed to be sincere. It doesn’t necessarily feel that way. It’s people trying to be affectionate and yet appropriate at the same time.
Nancy: Exactly. But this is something else.
Carl I think the one-arm hug comes really out of a work culture. So like if your friends outside of work while at work, you give the one-arm hug. You know, like I mean, for the exact same reason that in church, you give the separate half…
Nancy: Right, right, right…
Carl: The top half hug…
Nancy/Frank: The top half hug…
Carl: Next day you get the right half hug.
Jeff: My other hand is busy looking at my phone playing Pokemon Go so I can’t hug with both hands.
Nancy: Oh wow.
Jeff: Have you heard of Pokemon Go?
Frank: I’ve heard of it.
Frank: I hear it’s like a major thing…
Nancy: It’s the craze right now.
Carl: It’s ridiculous.
Jeff: Major to the point where this week in college park Maryland,—
Jeff: —there were two armed robberies.
Jeff: On people who were—because you’re walking, looking at your phone to find this, you know, hologram… to find the Pokemon. Dude comes up behind him with a gun, takes their phone, takes their money.
Jeff: Because your concentration is totally averted or diverted to your phone.
Jeff: And the motivation behind this interactive game is, number one, they’re aiming at people who play interactive games which is many.
Jeff: There’s millions.
Jeff: Of people doing this. It’s to get the out instead of sitting at home, playing the game or sitting on your phone. You have to actually physically GO to a location.
Jeff: So they actually out lauded at the Holocaust Museum. They out lauded that Arlington Cemetery. Because people were going.
Jeff: To search for Pokemon, or Pikachu or whoever it may be…
Nancy: That’s insane.
Jeff: It’s headlines in the news this week.
Nancy: Yes it sure is.
Frank: How did you manage to know who the hell Pikachu is?
Jeff: I am kids who grew up in the 90s.
Nancy: His kids grew up on Pokemon, yeah.
Frank: So Pokemon’s been around that long?
Jeff: Oh yeah.
Nancy: How old are your kids, Sgt. Grant?
Sgt. Pressley: Wow, both [unclear]… the youngest one is 39, oldest one is 41.
Nancy: Oh they missed the Pokemon era…
Jeff: My kids are in their 20s and that was huge in the 90s, huge.
Nancy: Yeah, yeah…
Carl: I mean, even—I’m 35 so I’m 36 as of last week.
Nancy: Happy Birthday.
Carl: Thank you. So… I definitely remember seeing Pokemon, like I knew exactly what it was. I was interested because I was just right over the hump but I had some younger cousins who were really into in it. I was foolish [unclear] to me, it still is.
Nancy: Collecting cards and all that…
Carl: Yeah, yeah what’re you going to do with the cards when you collect?
Nancy: They just had them in the book.
Carl: It’s got 15,000 Pokemon cards. Sounds like fire wood.
Frank: And so… does anybody here give voluntarily just give the one-arm hug?
Frank: I mean, you’re opposed. I’m opposed. I don’t even understand it. Carl?
Carl: Depends on the person.
Frank: Alright. Jeff?
Jeff: Not intentionally. Maybe I’m shaking a dude’s hand with my right hand, I’ll put my—
Frank: But that’s—
Nancy: That’s totally different.
Frank: That’s different.
Jeff: No I didn’t know it existed.
Nancy: If you only want to do a one-arm hug, you may as well shake hands.
Carl: That’s a one to two hug…
Frank: Yeah. That’s right.
Nancy: I think that’s actually more appropriate.
Frank: I agree.
Frank: Cellphone etiquette in relationships. There was an article in Psychology Today, recent Psychology Today that is talking about how much relationships are affected by cellphones. People are really spending their time together on their phones and—I’m going to interject me and my wife into this easily—when my wife gets in the car with me, I’m like, “Babe, put it away. I don’t even care who you’re talking to, communicating with, I don’t care what you’re doing. Put it away. Otherwise, we can stay at home.” I didn’t—and I’m not going talking about I’m taking her to the train station or I’m running her somewhere that, or we’re going somewhere utility-wise.
Frank: I’m talking about we’re going out or we’re going to dinner or something like—
Carl: On a date.
Frank: So put the phone away. If you want to be on the phone, we can stay at home. And I say that, any… What’d you say, Carl? You’re married. Or does she say that to you?
Carl: No, no. She doesn’t say that to me. I don’t say that to her either. I think over time, you kind of feel where the margins are and… one or two times you say “Are we talking? Or are you texting? Or…” they kind of get it. I mean, they’re your spouse. You chose them, you picked them, they picked you. And so, like just the same as you put peppers on my chipotle and it’s a little too hot. The next time I go to Chipotle, I remember—
Frank: Hold up. You mean those green peppers in Chipotle? There’s only one kind of peppers in Chipotle.
Carl: No, no they got two kinds. They got some hot-hot hot stuff that doesn’t look that hot and then they got some stuff that’s not hot at all. So like you can get confused twice actually. Sorry, babe. But now, I know. Don’t put no peppers. And without her even having to say, this is a corruption that you have to make. And so, by the same token with behaviors, I think that in judging how our partners respond to what we do, that’s where we find the margins.
Frank: The thing is, sometimes, we’re so into what we’re doing that we’re not paying attention to our partners. I can’t say that’s—that’s not like as being done to be malicious or irritating—
Frank: Or intentionally to not pay attention to your partner but it definitely has an effect. Nancy, you… as a matter of fact, Serge? What do you say about something like this?
Sgt. Pressley: If it makes you happy…
Nancy: How long have you been married?
Frank: Are you married?
Sgt. Pressley: Yes, yes. I’ve been married for 37 years on June 14… oohh I messed up there.
Sgt. Pressley: June 23rd… made 37 years.
Frank: Keep it 14th and let her hear the show.
Nancy: Get over that… Congratulations on your anniversary. So, so in that time or at any time, so now the both of you are quite busy I expect from time to time. And yet, I bet you never entered that zone where you’re divided because one of you is too caught up in your cellphones.
Frank: Why do you bet that? what did you—
Nancy: I just get that feeling. I get that feeling because 37 years ago, 25 years ago you didn’t distract yourself with your phone. Do you see what I’m saying? The phone is seen as a tool. It’s not an extension of your being. For some people, the phone is like their arm, their hand, their eye.
Frank: You don’t know how to set up a question. See, you ain’t set up the question right.
Nancy: I didn’t set up the question right Carl?
Frank: First of all, we didn’t even know he has a cellphone so you got to ask him that first.
Nancy: Well no… Frank doesn’t know that he has a cellphone.
Frank: Oh I’m sorry. So Serge, do you have a cellphone?
Sgt. Pressley: I had 2…
Sgt. Pressley: My wife… my wife has the other one. She has two and she works.
Frank: And are either of them smartphones? See, that’s how you set up a question.
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Nancy: But did you catch that his wife had 2 and she works them.
Frank: Alright now we got something to work with.
Nancy: Oh got it.
Frank: So now you can weigh in on whether your cellphones are distracting, now that we know that YOU have them. See Nancy? Alright. There we go.
Nancy: Doesn’t everybody have a cellphone, Carl?
Carl: Not everybody.
Nancy: Oh wow.
Frank:This brother is atleast he got a son, 39…
Carl: He’s married in ’79, like we got married in 1979.
Nancy: Exactly. That’s what I’m saying.
Frank: He’s atleast 60.
Nancy: I bet you, that the cellphone does not dominate his relationship with his wife.
Carl: And that’s why I would bet with Nancy for that exactly.
Nancy: Thank you, Carl.
Frank: What you two—okay, okay… Okay Serge, what say you about cellphone etiquette?
Sgt. Pressley: Well I hope my wife’s not listening…
Nancy: Not yet.
Sgt. Pressley: But she is constantly on her cellphone.
Frank: And that means—
Sgt. Pressley: Constantly.
Frank: When I hear you say “constantly,” I hear that it is partially annoying to you. Am I right?
Sgt. Pressley: At times, yes.
Frank: Thank you. Alright, so what do you want her to do differently?
Sgt. Pressley: Well when we’re together, to try to limit your business calls. Now that’s our time.
Nancy: Oh okay. So you have like a window of tie that you set out as specifically for the two of you and essentially you’re just saying “honor that”?
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Nancy: That’s fair.
Frank: You have something else to add?
Carl: I do the… I absolutely do not have business hours like, or I have hours that are not for business. When my wife and I sit down and watch a movie, I’m not taking your call. I’m like…
Carl: That is exactly why but I did call you back once the movie ended.
Frank: Ah alright, okay.
Carl: And my wife’s a teacher so she’s home now. so I’m at the office a little less. Just so you know, you got to steal the time that you can…
Frank: But we’re not—
Carl: She’s my best friend.
Frank: But we’re not… we’re leaving out the fact that it is—
Carl: I hope that she’s listening too.
Frank: Oh in this part of what you’re saying?
Carl: Yeah, yeah, yeah…
Frank: We’re leaving out the fact that cellphones get used for personal stuff too, not just business things.
Carl: That is true.
Frank: So Serge, if your wife gets a personal call, most likely, I’m imposing my opinion here. Most likely, it’s going to go to her cellphone, not your house phone. I mean, that’s just the culture that we live in these days. So she gets a personal call. That might be irritating too, not just business calls. Am I right?
Sgt. Pressley: True, true. But we hardly ever use our home phone. [unclear] she does than I do.
Frank: Okay. So any request there? Anything you’d like to say to my wife? Or any spouse about how to deal with your cellphone?
Jeff: Well tell your wife now I know why she never calls me because she’s probably in the car with you.
Frank: Okay. There we have it. Serge, you have the last word on this matter.
Sgt. Pressley: Absolutely. After 37 years, police wives as far as the cellphones, I’m used to it. I understand her, her business feeds and so I’m fine with it.
Frank: Alright. Moving on… Why’d you become a police office?
Sgt. Pressley: Well that’s a very interesting question because I never really wanted to become a police officer. You know, a child growing up in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s and I’ve seen some police officers do some horrific things to people. It’s a no way, no how but due to a [unclear] situations laid off, I have to go to important place and had applications for the police department. I took the application home and laid it on the kitchen table. My wife got off work, came in and said “[unclear] fill it up?” I said, “No… you better…” and the rest is history.
Frank: I so appreciate your answer. I’m so glad you didn’t say nothing like “to help people and you became a police officer because it was a job, you had to make a living.”
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah.
Nancy: Feed your family.
Frank: Thank you.
Carl: And your wife told you to.
Sgt. Pressley: True.
Frank: Would you be an officer—well you’ve answered my question. So my question was going to be “would you be an officer if you weren’t paid to do it?” and the answers clearly no because you did it because you got paid to do it. so alright, moving on… You’re married. You’ve been married how many years? You said—
Frank: Okay, alright. And given the dynamics that you see around police officers and relationships, what are the dynamics that you see related to police officers and relationships?
Sgt. Pressley: Well I think… No this is what I dissert… really there’s two police [unclear] any police department. There’s a white police department and a black police department. And sometimes, white police officers would police see black member hood differently from a black police officer. A black police officer policing in a white neighborhood, we’re always careful. Because somebody will call in a complain against us or they’re going to deal with us. So you’re always are cautious whereas a white police officer can come in and maybe use more force than necessary, use vulgar language and nothing ever happens.
Nancy: What about the dynamic of having other officers from other cultures?
Sgt. Pressley: Well for us, just here recently, we heard a Latino, we usually heard a Latino and very nice person, and already he has seen or understand the culture of the police department. It appears he’s not sure whether to sort of hang with black officers or hang with the white officers but he’s trying to find his way who’s going to protect me if I need help.
Nancy: So he’s sort of an outsider looking for…
Frank: A home.
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Nancy: Got it.
Frank: Marriages. Marriages in the police department. Any dynamics you see? High divorce rate, low divorce rate, acrimony, getting called to other officer’s homes for—
Nancy: Domestic violence?
Frank: Domestic violence? What can you add there?
Sgt. Pressley: Divorce rate in police officers is very, very high.
Sgt. Pressley: And that’s due to what I call “the hero”. A police officer is sent to a cost—especially domestic violence. You go there and you saw the situation whether they’re married or just living together. So you are that white knight and you perk the situation for her benefit. Now she has feelings towards you. Now some police officer married and single take advantage to that type of situation. And to their [unclear], divorce and child support, and also to domestic violence is high with police officers.
Nancy: How did you kept it together for 37 years?
Frank: Assuming that you have, thank you—see, you got to set up your question. Ha!
Nancy: I’m learning, however, slowly.
Frank: We don’t know that you—we don’t—I mean, we’re learning you, Serge.
Nancy: He’s celebrating an anniversary…
Frank: That doesn’t mean—
Nancy: They still have date night.
Frank: That doesn’t mean he hasn’t had his share of issues in his [unclear]…
Carl: 15 years ago you might…
Nancy: Right, right, right…
Carl: Cracked her little skull…
Nancy: Okay, okay…
Frank: I didn’t say that, but you know… What—
Sgt. Pressley: Well I’m one of the very few police officers who’s phone number is on the telephone book. Even though I wear a wedding ring, it doesn’t matter. There have been a lot of women who will call my house asking to speak to Sgt. Pressley. My wife would begin to—out of the corner of her eye—like “why is this lady calling?” and sometimes myself I wonder, why are you calling me?
Nancy: Because you’re in the book…
Frank: Because you’re cute…
Sgt. Pressley: No, no… I was… Due to my experience, I had always tried to go the extra mile to help people. Most of my uniform days are in a car we’re in the black neighborhood. And so, based off my experience, I don’t want to police that way. And I never had a problem—well yeah, I never had a real problem. The only problem that I ever had was with people who didn’t know me. It was really to black people. Well for the most part, I had a great career. There has been some ups and downs, seen how kids killed by parents or to gunfire. [unclear] my wife used to tell me not to get attached to kids because it was not for me to—
Frank: Hopefully, she wasn’t talking about your own…
Sgt. Pressley: —have a kids date night to the movie. If I’d really like to, I introduce you to my parents. But I really had to—it was something that was in me that if you can meet my parents, you understand the need [unclear] kid. I’m just like you.
Frank: So you’re talking about you as an officer introducing kids to your parents?
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Sgt. Pressley: So that they can see that I’m like them. I wasn’t born an adult. These are my parents and then what my mom would say though, with that motherly instinct and she wants to hug them, take some lunch or dinner or if it’s in the morning, take breakfast. Sometimes, I’m too—pull out a comb and comb their hair, take them to the bathroom to wash their face, it was just amazing.
Jeff: Sergeant, I’m not sure how large your community is or how large the black community is that you work in but I have basically 3 questions. I’ll try to sum them all into one. Richard Pryor used to have this routine and it’s too long to get into but sort of the punch line was “I’m not going to lose my pension” and it was about an African-American officer in the community trying to do his job. We can stem it from black on black crime right down to the fact that now, I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be a police officer for a variety of reasons and black or white. How do you deal with—I’ll use a big broad word—respect? Because you said you’ve had some problems that’s usually people who don’t know you. Do you still feel respect for the uniform and the badge?
Sgt. Pressley: Oh yes. Yes. Without the while being a police officer, I took the attitude that I want to make a difference. Not only in my community but for the neighbouring communities around me.
Jeff: So when you see police brutality or alleged murder, what does that do to you in terms of pride for your profession?
Sgt. Pressley: It hurts, leaves me full of shame but I can understand a little bit of those officers because I had told someone else… it’s not a trainee issue; it’s a hiring issue. A lot of times, police officers—white police officers—their brothers, their dad, cousins are on the police department. So they’re going to have more of an advantage in the hiring process just because they have a relative that’s already on the police department. And so we don’t—and if it’s a relative in doing a background check, a lot of times, we won’t dig as deep as we should because I had a situation where a friend of mine—not a police officer—[unclear] someone to come on… and I was getting ready to give “okay” to hiring him. But a lot of police departments, [unclear] my police department do the psychological test that is done. There’s a series of questions, probably a hundred questions that say [unclear] ask an applicant. Some of those questions will be repeated but they will answer asking a different form just to see where their response change. I have found that that was—
Sgt. Pressley: 98% accurate because when I called that agency and they told me what to look for even though I had almost included my investigation. When I went back and [unclear]—they were spot on. And so I can recommend it even though [unclear]… my best friend, and there was his step son and told him… “Hey, [unclear] popped up that were negative about your step son. I cannot recommend him.”
Nancy: Did he put a strain on your relationship with your friend?
Sgt. Pressley: It did. It did.
Frank: And what were those indicators indicative of? What did they suggest?
Sgt. Pressley: A very aggressive, selfish and prone to violence.
Frank: Wow. The hiring, you’re saying, it’s not the training; it’s the hiring. I happen to think there’s alsoa culture of corruption in the police department. In many ways there’s an “I am going to”—there’s almost like a brothers or a brothers-at-arms culture that exist where you look out for each other before you look out for the community. And that is the breeding ground—as far as I’m concerned—for…
Frank: Yeah, yeah and not checking each other, I mean you’re here to help the community no help each other. I understand that there are some great lines but what say you?
Sgt. Pressley: Well, and this is a short story… A friend of mine was [unclear] to being the first black captain ever in the 20-year history of the Canton police department. But he once relayed to me a story because he was always pro-black. He got a call involving black people. He [unclear] to make sure they were treated fairly. White officers then do that.
One time, he had a call to [unclear] call and that’s for backup. No one ever showed. And at that time, he was our—there were two other black police officers. And black officers quickly began to learn that I may have to fit in because I don’t want to be put in a situation but I’m on a [unclear] and nobody’s going to come to my aid if I needed that.
Nancy: I didn’t even know that that was possible.
Nancy: That a police officer would call for backup and not get…
Frank: That’s what I’m saying.
Nancy: That’s heavy, that’s heavy…
Frank: There’s a breeding ground for corruption and that brings up a whole another piece when we’re talking about brotherhood and that sort of thing… But the fraternal order of police, first of all let me just ask you, are you a member?
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Frank: I have a fundamental question regarding such an organization. When you really think about the advocacy that goes on for police officers, there’s something that is questionable. We’re looking at officers coming together, basically being a collective when that’s really not the function of being a police officer. The collective is coming together in many ways against the people.
Nancy: So it’s a conflict of interest relationship?
Frank: Yeah. It seems like a conflict if interest to have such a fraternity in many ways. Your thoughts?
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah, you’re right. But also, the larger police departments, we have a black union and we have a white union. And for me, I always thought that was crazy but then I’ve been on the job for [unclear] my years. I see the necessity for that because a lot of times, black officers interests versus what white officers’ interest are not in line with black officers’ interests.
Frank: Such as?
Sgt. Pressley: Just doing police work. Black officers feel that if you go into a black neighborhood, you don’t have to use the “N” word, cuff them out and then a few [unclear] help that help us out there or you might be disciplined more severely than the white officer. And in part, that’s why [unclear] police departments had a black union to represent them.
Nancy: So based on what I’m hearing you say, on the world’s stage in the larger context, this whole idea of races and transcending the issue of races as it relates to police officers and citizens, it’s so huge inside the police department—
Nancy: —how can we expect to resolve it when you bring in the public? If this basically—it’s almost as if what’s happening inside the interior of the police department is mushrooming and manifesting outside the department.
Sgt. Pressley: True, true. In fact, may I have this in talking about black union, the Dallas police chief, Chief Brown, Dallas has the black union, and a white union in that police department. Now and I’ve seen that Chief Brown is not [unclear] I truly believe that he’s [unclear]. But when it comes to promoting a chief, it’s not about who has the top score. That don’t have nothing to do with it. It depends on who is going to follow the mirrors of will.
Sgt. Pressley: Or whoever’s managing the city. Now in his case and I could be totally wrong, but just listening to him at times, they want to have a black chief because that’s a thing now, to try to get a black chief so then came nobody and say “Well department’s [unclear] black chief.”
Nancy: That’s political.
Sgt. Pressley: They picked the right guy. He is definitely—
Frank: Towing the line.
Sgt. Pressley: —in line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [unclear] how he talks…
Carl: And the son was murdered by a police officer after murdering a police officer.
Carl: Which is interesting…
Nancy: Wait a minute. His son—
Carl: 3 weeks after he became the chief of police.
Nancy: Hisson murdered?
Carl: His son murdered a police officer…
Carl: …somewhere else, not in his district. And then was consequently murdered by a police officer.
Nancy: Like a revenge killing…
Frank: Was it the same incident, like shoot, boom, boom, boom… and then—
Carl: No, no, no it was later.
Carl: Like he got away 2 hours, 3 hours, was caught and killed. And so like, you have to be a special type of person to go through that and continue to be a part of that structure, knowing that it could take anyone from you.
Nancy: Yeah… Wow…
Frank: Okay, I got some names for you, Serge and I would like to hear names, words… First off, training day. Did you see the movie? What’d you think of it?
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah. I like Denzel Washington.
Sgt. Pressley: That is real. Oh ooh…
Nancy: That’s deep…
Sgt. Pressley: Oh yeah, yeah… Oh my department…
Frank: Okay, let’s go…
Sgt. Pressley: We had a white version of a character Denzel played and a lot of us, black and white [unclear] said he has something on the chief of police, he would rob drug dealers. Because this time, I’m in internal affair so I have firsthand information on him. He would rob drug dealers of their money and then take their drugs then tell them, “I am giving this back to you. I want you to sell it and give me the money,” in firsthand. I know that… or either he was threatened young black women, “if you don’t have sex with me, I’m going to arrest your mother, I’m going to arrest your brother, I’m going to do something to your parents.”
Frank: How long did that persist? How long—
Sgt. Pressley: He also would put a gun on people’s head and people would tell me that. And I knew these people. It was not like I was trying to get anything on him, then they would call me, they said, “You got to have to do something about it. You have to do something about it.” And at that time, I work with another white officer who’s seen them for himself. Yeah, that trainee is real.
Frank: How long did this go on and is he still on the force?
Sgt. Pressley: He retired. He retired sort of in… he should have. The FBI, it was so rapid the FBI allegedly was looking into him but when he resigned, they stopped the investigation.
Frank: Did he retire or resign?
Sgt. Pressley: Well he retired but he couldn’t get his full benefit. As a matter of fact, I think this year, he can apply and get his full benefit. [unclear] partial.
Frank: And that was because he retired early?
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Frank: Or because he retired under questionable circumstances?
Sgt. Pressley: No, he retired early.
Sgt. Pressley: He had the time but he didn’t have the age.
Nancy: Yeah, so the real deal is…
Frank: Got away with it.
Nancy: …in the public eye he retired. He retires in the force of him understanding you correctly, under questionable circumstances. We call it “retirement” and we retire you to keep from prosecuting you. So the crimes he committed, there’s no…
Frank: He’s cool. He got away with it.
Nancy: Right, right.
Sgt. Pressley: And the chief at that time, and we didn’t know whether he had anything on the chief or whether he was giving the chief money. And the funny thing, when I was promoted to sergeant, me and the chief were promoted together. I had always felt that I had a higher score than his but for some reason—and they do intensive of a point, he was ahead of me by 10th of appointment. How do you grade somebody like that? But they knew just me, [unclear] one day he will be chief. And he shout the [unclear] real quick. REAL QUICK.
Frank: This is Frank Relationships, a show for you my brethren who like me, are too young to be considered old and too old to be considered young. It’s also for those of you that love and support us. We’re here to provide weekly wisdom, conversation and the information that’ll help you create better parents and partners.
You can find this in our archives show. There are well over a hundred at franklove.com on Blog Talk, iTunes and Stitcher.
You guys may remember at the beginning of the year, we did a show with Mater Yao Nyamekye on tantra.
Frank: You can check out that show in our archives. Well, he has a full weekend of tantra workshops coming up in the D.C. area during the weekend of July 22, 2016 and you’re invited to join him. For more informaiton, visit www.masteryao57.eventbrite.com. I’ll also post the link with the show on www.franklove.com.
Nancy: It should be interesting.
Frank: It should indeed. Serge, I got a few more words, phrases, names that I want to run by you. First off, in situations actually, to bring the racial dynamic that you’ve been noting into question, if you look at the video from the killing of the man in South Carolina by the police officer, the white police officer killed him but the black police officer was helping him cover it up.
Sgt. Pressley: Yes.
Frank: There’s something—there’s a fraternity clearly there. what say you about that?
Sgt. Pressley: In that particular case, I’m thinking that that black officer was probably on a 2, maybe 3 black police officers there and in his mind, you don’t want to go and get another police officer because if you do, your [unclear] in front of the police department and I’ve been there on that… but there comes a time we have to do what is right. Take the hit.
Nancy: Take the hit?
Sgt. Pressley: You see—well, I’m saying speak up and then whatever ramifications come from that, so be it but just do the right thing.
Nancy: But that sounds easier said than done.
Frank: It is.
Nancy: In that culture… to be quite honest. And it also sounds like an impossible job to have any integrity personal or otherwise also seems like a tough… How do you do it?
Carl: I mean also we’re talking about murder. I’m like… I mean, murder… actually killing a person.
Nancy: Lately… yeah….
Frank: No, no, no… we’re not talking about murder. We’re talking about justifiable homicide.
Carl: Right. But it was—
Carl: I was talking about murder, after. If you can tell it on me…
Frank: Yeah, well when we see the—
Carl: You know what I’m saying? Like that’s the—I watched you murder someone. Justifiably, homicide someone.
Nancy: “Justifiably homicide someone…”
Frank: Remember, the guy turned around “and pulled”—and was looking like he was going to pull a weapon. That’s what it was said. [unclear]
Carl: That guy was off the lead running away. Off [unclear]…
Frank: He was running hard as—
Carl: As hard as he could.
Carl: And he was not moving. Like he was not moving fast enough to… they probably could’ve thrown something at his feet and he would have tripped down and fell. You know what I’m saying? Like there was absolutely no reason to shoot him but now that I’ve seen you shoot him—
Frank: Target practice.
Carl: I don’t want to be next.
Frank: Well… Serge, you got anything to add on that?
Sgt. Pressley: I’m glad you brought that incident up. That was not a training issue with that officer.
Sgt. Pressley: [unclear]…
Carl: Home training.
Sgt. Pressley: It was a hiring issue. He was like that from the start of his career.
Frank: The black or the white officer or both?
Sgt. Pressley: The white, the white officer.
Sgt. Pressley: But they hired him anyway.
Nancy: Okay. So it’s a hiring issue AND so, how deep does it run? Earlier this week, I heard an official say that only—he says, “Yes, you’re going to have some bad apples but 98% of the force are good people that are trying to do a good job.” Is 2% an exaggeration based on what we’re seeing?
Frank: Yes. But… that’s—
Sgt. Pressley: 2% of the department is bad?
Nancy: He’s saying that only 2% of the department at the end of the day is really—
Frank: Questionable, problematic…
Nancy: Yeah, yeah…
Sgt. Pressley: Or is higher than that.
Frank: Oh yes. It’s higher than that.
Nancy: It’s clearly higher than that.
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah. That’s just the—they can’t answer that to you guess…
Frank: And it’s the one that no one can disprove.
Frank: Like you can’t—
Nancy: Not without doing some serious research yourself.
Frank: Right, right.
Carl: Well, in any field where I write the report…
Nancy: Yeah, yeah…
Carl: You’ll never be able to truly understand what happens in a moment.
Frank: Not only do I write the report. But if—there are questionable circumstances, I got—like 30 days—
Carl: No, I got my homies too.
Frank: I got 30 days before I give a statement—
Frank: —before… and possibly longer before the video’s shown or… I mean, it is completely stacked in the favor of the officer.
Carl: It’s like trying to park at the courthouse.
Carl: On the spots of police officers… of course I was late for court.
Frank: Serge, come on. What’d you got on any of this that we’re saying?
Sgt. Pressley: You know, I cannot disagree with it. In what you do… What police departments do and I’m sure that white officer, they bring him in, they get his side of the story. They have a black officer come in and get his side of the story. Now the black officer, he doesn’t want to go against the grey. You don’t want to be that guy who [unclear]. You don’t want to be the guy that could one day get set up and be killed themself. Now that’s not [unclear] possibility. With the police department, I mean it’s so easy to set people up. Another police officer—
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And…
Sgt. Pressley: Go ahead.
Frank: Everyone here except Jeff, is African-American. So I don’t want to—I think you’re being too nice on the black officers. And I’ma tell you a little bit—I haven’t experienced… I’ve had an experience that comes to mind, they’re certainly worse than what I’m about to say but I had a cop pull me over one time, black officer and it’s because my headlight, I didn’t turn m—I was coming out of the garage and my headlights weren’t on. And I said, “Why would you not just give me a warning instead of writing a full citation?” He said, “Because I felt it.”
Frank: And so… I went to his superior. He lied about it, said he never said that. You know, I mean… Whatever.
Frank: But… I don’t want to—and mind you, the culture’s different in where I grew up versus Canton. The difference is D.C. is and especially when that happens, that happened in the late ‘90s or something like that. D.C. was black. Major black police department, although it was significantly white also. So the cultures—you have its own, you have your own corruption in a mostly black force—if it’s mostly black. I don’t know what the percentages are but they’re certainly significant in numbers.
I don’t want—I don’t think it’s fair to paint the picture as though it’s just white officers that—
Nancy: The black officers are victims…
Frank: —are corrupt or that have issues. Black officers do too. In fact, there’s a dynamic that I read about years ago. I haven’t heard of any situation like that recently but where someone was trying to get out of a parking space to avoid getting a ticket, and the cop stood in front of the car while the guy was trying to get away from getting a ticket. The guy continued to try to get away and the cop killed him because it was assault with a deadly weapon. The car.
Carl: The car?
Nancy: The car was a deadly weapon?
Frank: That is absolutely absurd and that happened in D.C., don’t know if the officer was black or white. However, I have seen the dynamic occur with a black officer where it didn’t escalate but where he did stand in front of the car. What do you say about any of that Serge?
Sgt. Pressley: Well, you do have bad black police officers… When you brought that up, it came to my mind, I know black police officers hired along with me… and again, it comes back to a hiring process. They never should have hired him. He was known to pull a car over for a traffic violation. He actually pulled the driver out of the window, went up and opened the door [unclear] pull him out of the car we’re not saying yes sir, no sir.
Sgt. Pressley: And as I’m telling you this now, I can see it in my mind now because I was there. And finally, he did have to leave but because me and him, our description was so similar… I didn’t care my gun home was always left at the police department. [unclear] that I carry my gun with me with fear that someone was going to think that I was [unclear].
You do have that white police officers… the way you look at the number of ratio, I think it’s only a small percentage.
Carl: I mean, I also I think that people come to work with whatever they left hoe with. You know, on any given day.
Frank: On any given job.
Carl: I could go to Chipotle and get raw chicken. I could go to Coby and get uncooked rice, right? Neither one of those are going to kill me though, hopefully.
Carl: But if I [unclear]…
Frank: Make it uncooked chicken [unclear].
Frank: If you eat it.cc: But some days late.
Nancy: You still got a little time.
Carl: But I recall in high school, being shot in the buttocks with a BB gun for passing someone who had a BB gun, like me and my friends were coming from a field trip we stopped, spoke for 3 seconds with somebody that we knew from the neighborhood. The police pulled, questioned us about a BB gun—we were coming from a field trip though, without class etc. and lined us all up on the hill and shot us all in the butt with his BB gun.
Carl: And that’s really a mild kind of story, like I have been to jail like because I can. I’ve been to jail because I can, more than once like 3 times in fact. Never having been charged with anything. Once I had to go to court, beating in court like there was no like the documents were completely wrong, like it wasn’t even my name. [unclear] my name.
Frank: And what’s your—just to be clear, when you’re saying “because I can”, you mean, you were locked up and the police officers reason for locking you up was “because I can”?
Carl: Yeah, because you ran off at the mouth, you know, you’re too smart at the mouth. What?! This is preposterous!
Nancy: Okay, but you know what now? that is a lot of what’s happening out there and that is perceived evidently by the officer of a form of disrespect and that takes us into is there or should there be some protocol, some training for citizens on how to deal with the police.
Sgt. Pressley: Oh true. True.
Nancy: And what should that look like? Should I be bowing down because somebody pulls me over with the red lights and “give me your license and registration” and they’re rude to me from the get-go because they can be?
Frank: Or even if they’re not rude. Do I need to bow down?
Nancy: They’re carrying a gun.
Sgt. Pressley: I was on my way to Cleveland for a training class and I have worked [unclear] job and I want to go to a hotel to stay. So I’m driving and I’m speeding. Black police officer pulls me over…
Frank: In a police car? Or not?
Sgt. Pressley: Yeah, in this car. I’m in uniform.
Nancy: No, were you in a pol—
Sgt. Pressley: I’m in uniform.
Nancy: You’re in uniform but you’re in a street car or regular car?
Sgt. Pressley: Regular car.
Sgt. Pressley: My hands both—I’m in uniform—both my hands were on the stirring wheel. He comes up and he looks at me… and he had want to write a ticket so bad, so bad. And oh man, he downrated me, belittled me. All police officer have big egos, we do. We have humungous egos.
Frank; Thank you for saying that.
Sgt. Pressley: And if one for the fact I had to be in that class, I would ask him to get a supervisor or what I would have, if I had my radio on, I would have contacted my department and have them contact that police department say “hey, have a supervisor meet out there.” You know, I would have took the ticket, yeah because I was speeding. But no, you don’t have to belittle me like that.
Nancy: I’m surprised he didn’t let you go.
Sgt. Pressley: Well he did, he did, he did. But again, he might become to my jurisdiction once. Hey it might be me or even another officer [unclear] want to have the same person because you don’t have to write a ticket.
Sgt. Pressley: Every time you see some—you don’t have to write a ticket.
Frank: Right, right. Once again, Miko’s here to give us some financial wisdom. Take it away, Miko.
Miko: Do you think that your life will be perfect if you just had more money or more stuff? Do you envy your friends or family because they have an expensive house or car? If you answered yes to either questions, you may be giving false power to money.
There are atleast 3 ways that we give money too much power:
1. We equate money with love. Money is a poor substitute for love and affection. Whether we are a parent, lover, friend, daughter or son, the people close to us probably value our time and attention more than the gifts or money we may lavish on them. To create your intimacy, we must be emotionally available.
In our fast-paced society, it is easy to believe that we are nurturing our relationships when we text, Snapchat or Facebook our friends and family. However, we need to consider whether Facetime is more appropriate and available.
2. We believe that if we only get this one more thing, we will be happy. How many times are we convinced ourselves that if we just get the new car, or new house or new shoes, we would finally be satisfied? Unfortunately, once we get that coveted item, we realize the thing didn’t fill the void that we hoped that it would. So we fixate on the next thing. Remember, money is just paper and doesn’t have the power to heal our emotional wounds.
Unfulfilling and often unnecessary spending is a sign of pain that we need to nurture and heal.
3. We believe money can fix all of our problems. Don’t get me wrong, money is definitely a necessity. Motivational speaker, [unclear] once said, that money’s right up there with air. But if money solved all our problems, there wouldn’t be so many unhappy, wealthy people.
Once we have the necessities covered, shelter, food and health, we need to look within for happiness and not rely on external things to heal our internal wounds.
If you need help realizing that you are powerful regardless of your current or past financial situation, call Miko’s Money Matters at 202-695-2404 and remember, it’s never too late to rescue your financial future.
Frank: Thanks, Miko. I want to know what comes to mind when I say Rodney King?
Sgt. Pressley: I’m embarrassed.
Frank: Freddie Gray?
Sgt. Pressley: I’m on the fence about that just based off of the evidence… Something happened to him and I have been a paddy wagon driver myself but there’s—they haven’t given me enough information as to who could have broke his neck or broke his back… because I cannot for the life of me, seen it because I have put [unclear] people in a paddy wagon… putting people in the paddy wagon.
Nancy: And didn’t strap him in.
Sgt. Pressley: By that time, —
Nancy: It wasn’t—
Sgt. Pressley: We’re [unclear] at that time.
Sgt. Pressley: There was no—
Nancy: Strapping in…
Sgt. Pressley: No nothing… and… But I always drove with respect. I weren’t trying to him to bounce around. But in that specific case, in their paddy wagon because now we have another type of paddy wagon. Even if that police officer drove 50 miles an hour and stopped all of a sudden, I just can’t see how his back was broken. I think something happened to him prior to being put in that paddy wagon and nobody’s saying anything. All those police officer [unclear] something like that, everybody’s quiet.
Frank: And amazing thing is, if everybody stays quiet, for the most part it seems like nobody pays. It’s—
Nancy: Justice is not served.
Frank: Everybody’s covered because nobody’s talking. And—
Carl: Well nobody paid him in Freddie Gray anyway…
Carl: Except the city of Baltimore.
Nancy: And Freddie Gray.
Frank: Though the… the thing—there seems to be a code amongst, again, we’re talking about black police officers. There’s a code there and it’s as much as people cheered when the state’s attorney or the district attorney, whatever have you brought charges, there’s no real way to say that we knew that was going to go anywhere. That could be the parade by itself. We’re going to bring charges, nobody will talk, it’ll get swept out [unclear]—
Carl: Well, yeah he got off…
Nancy: We’ll try it a year from now.
Frank: Yeah, yeah…
Carl: He got off earlier this week.
Frank: Yes. But I mean, there’s four of them. I think it’s four of them. And there’s…
Nancy: I think it’s five…
Frank: Everybody knows you keep quiet and you don’t testify against each other AND add that to the culture that the police department—not really—but “despises” which is no snitching. You have… it’s fascinating. That’s all I can say. It’s absolutely [unclear]…
Nancy: It’s a mess.
Carl: It’s a microcosm of society.
Frank: Absolutely, absolutely.
Nancy: Yeah, yeah. On steroids.
Frank: Serge, you got anything on that?
Sgt. Pressley: Well I agree. I agree. Something happened to him and nobody’s talking and so I give it to the prosecutor. He has to charge somebody. [unclear] of life but in order to save that, the prosecutor is something…
Sgt. Pressley: …[unclear] charge those officer. And knowing that they’re going to be there.
Sgt. Pressley So it was no lose, a no lose situation for her because she did her job.
Frank: She did her job, that’s it. And she can get voted in again.
Sgt. Pressley: Yes, yes.
Frank: Whew. You’re listening to Frank Relationships and we’re talking with Sgt. Grant Pressley, Jr. of the Canton Police Department about police and policing in the wake of great deal of scrutiny and unrest around the country. As this is happening, as a video is providing the public with the new medium for relaying police behavior to a larger audience. In fact, what are your thoughts about the current wealth, actually, two questions. What’s your thoughts about the prevalence of video now or the fact that it exists so much easier than it has in the past AND I would love to get a percentage. What do you think the number of incidents that are caught on video is only a percentage—what percentage of actual incidents of that nature that exist that do not get caught on video?
Sgt. Pressley: Probably a large percentage. Now actually, those cameras that the officers have them on their body. Should be isolated the moment they exit the car. Their personal casual on and why it’s not working due to the officer shut it off.
Sgt. Pressley: In the case of both of the shootings that was in Minnesota and Louisiana. All that stuff if the officers did right and it came on, [unclear] actually all that video. And the fact if it was in the officer’s favor, there would be [unclear] to show those videos right away.
Sgt. Pressley: It’s here. Here America, this is what actually happened.
Frank: Right, right.
Sgt. Pressley: By them not showing it tells me yeah, there are some issues there. Either the officer didn’t turn it on and they don’t want to admit that the officer didn’t turn it on. But one thing, once it fell off of him—
Frank: But the other officer turned away. The other officer literally turned away the video and looked the other way while he shot—while the other officer, one officer shot the guy on the ground.
Carl: First he got off of him because he was about to get shot too.
Carl: And then he turned away. Because like if you remember, they were both on top of him. He said, “He has a gun!” and one officer rode off, the other one shot him. Boom, Boom! Then he got up, turned away and the other officer shot him three more times from his back. And now they got the HD Video, they got the surveillance camera video which is like the worse angle possible in terms of squeamish stomachs like you actually—
Nancy: Pretty graphic.
Carl: The people filming turned away also. Like, they couldn’t keep their hands steady. They couldn’t believe what was going on. So you see where you can see the shots off camera but he actualy turns away each time the shots ring up. But the surveillance camera is stationary [unclear]. Its showing you the entirety of the situation.
Nancy: The objective.
Nancy: Dispassionate observer.
Carl: In HD. It’s kind of—
Frank: It’s very ugly. You’re listening to Frank Relationships and we’ve been talking with Sgt. Grant Pressley, Jr. about police and policing in the wake of a great deal of scrutiny and unrest around the country. This is happening in many ways and in large part because of video that’s providing the public with the new medium for relaying police behavior to a larger audience.
Along today’s journey, we’ve discussed the culture of policing, we’ve heard a good training day story and the high divorce rate around police departments. Thank you to my guest co-host Carl Thomas. Thank you to my co-host, Nancy. Thanks to Jeff Newman, my engineer and thank you to my super duper guest, Sgt. Grant Pressley, Jr. of the Canton Police Department. You’ve been great.
I hope you’ve had as much fun as I’ve had hanging out with today’s ensemble.
As always, it’s my wish for you to walk away from this conversation with a heaping helping of useful information that I hope you create a relation that’s as loving and accepting as possible.
Let us know what you think of today’s show at facebook.com/relationshipflove, on Twitter at @mrfranklove or at franklove.com. If you’re listening via Blog Talk Radio, make sure you like us there and if via iTunes, make sure you subscribe so that you can receive each week’s show.
This is Frank love.
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