Ever had group sex. Ever fantasized about it, but have no idea who or what to ask? Well, we’ve got a self-proclaimed, card carrying pervert to bring you up to speed on all of the sexual kinkiness and desires that you can dream up. Stay tuned.
Links to this week’s guest: Voxnoir9@yahoo.com
FRANK RELATIONSHIPS: SWINGERS & SWINGING
Guest: Vox “Noir”
December 23, 2012
Frank: Ever had group sex? Ever fantasized about it, but have no idea who or what to ask? Well, we’ve got a self-proclaimed card carrying pervert to bring you up to speed on all of the sexual kinkiness and the desires that you can dream up. Stay tuned.
Welcome to Frank Relationships where we provide a candid, fresh and frank look into relationships with goals of acceptance, respect and flexibility.
I’m Frank Love and you can find me, my blog and my various social media incarnations at franklove.com.
Once again, I’m joined by my co-host, Dr. Gayle. She’s got a doctorate in psychology and intends to smash me with it at any given opportunity. What’s up, Dr. Gayle?
Dr. Gayle: What’s up, Frank?
Frank: There are a number of actions that many participate in that are simply written off as perversions by the public at large, but are participated in behind closed doors or in relative secret by robust numbers. Robust to the extent that businesses have been built around it, magazines published and parties conducted. You may not know for sure where our show is going or you may have a very good idea. And whether you’re right or wrong, you could easily be wondering, how the hell is Frank going to make this about relationships in a manner that’s respectable?
Well, if so, I’m glad you asked. You see, I suspect for everyone person that acts on what many of us believe to be a sexual perversion, there are 20 that want to, but are afraid to put it out there and this person could be your partner. Are you ready or prepared to speak with him or her candidly about these thoughts? Are you ready to present yourself and your fantasies to your partner for the sake of exposure, being understood or being accepted?
Well my friends, that’s where we come in. I want to start the conversation. I can remember seeing “Eddie Murphy Delirious,” what seems like 30 years ago. And he started the show by saying, “I got rules when I throw down.” Well, I’m going to ask you to adopt a few rules as you listen to today’s show:
Rule number one: listen to it alone or at least don’t communicate with anyone else while you listen to the show. Rule number two: self examine while listening. Take note of whether you want to participate in any of the sexual escapades that we will discuss as though no one else will ever know what you did. And rule number three: consider being welcoming to your partner as he or she fantasizes about the same things that you do.
Our guest today enjoys sexuality, sexual energy and sexually charged environments and that’s why he creates them. He’s the founder of the Maryland Pleasure Syndicate. After getting bored with giving underground lap dance parties, and as a result of being approached by women who wanted to have group sex in a controlled environment, he decided to create such a scene. Along the way, he’s hosted such events at his apartments and hotel rooms and he’s here to tell us all about those experiences, their evolution and the rules.
So, if you want to know what swinging is, the difference between being dominate, submissive, master and slave and what type of people participate in sex-related parties, then join me and welcoming swinger and card carrying pervert, Vox. Good morning.
Vox: Good morning. Good morning, Frank. How are you?
Frank: Great. Gow are you doing?
Vox: Not bad, not bad at all. Hello there, Dr. Gayle.
Dr. Gayle: Good morning, Vox.
Frank: Alright, first up. What in the world is a card carrying pervert?
Vox: Wow, you know what? That’s something that I really coined for myself, because people look at perversion and perverts as, “This is a horrible thing.” And me, I’m a fun loving guy and it’s more of a joke than anything else.
I really believe that it’s a person who owns their sexuality, owns their desires, is open about it. And, oh God, to say very honestly, I liked what you were saying about people being open with their mates and their relationships about their desires, because that’s definitely what I promote and that to me is a card carrying pervert; somebody who’s open with the things that they enjoy, the things that they like, the things that they’re interested in. Not even that everything you’re interested in, you follow up on, but you may have these thoughts and you’re willing to share them with the people closest to you, especially in a relationship.
Dr. Gayle: Is that your pick-up line, Vox?
Vox: No, no, really. God, I’m horrible at picking
Frank: He doesn’t need a pick up line. He’s got these parties going.
Vox: There is that too, but I don’t participate in my own parties.
Dr. Gayle: Hmm. Why not?
Vox: Because, well honestly, one, I’m not a swinger. I’m not. I’m not into the swing lifestyle. I support and promote healthy sexual exploration.
Dr. Gayle: Can you explain that further, Vox? I’m confused. How could you not be a swinger, but you promote swinger parties?
Frank: You don’t have to be a boxer to promote a boxing match. But go on Vox, don’t get me started.
Vox: No, hey, that’s fine but that’s a good question and honestly I get it a lot even from people who come to my parties. Again for me I believe that as an adult you should have the freedom to explore your sexuality with other adults–with other consenting adults, I should add.
For me what I like to do is provide an atmosphere, provide a safe place for men and women to come and do that. Whether it’s something that I’m into personally is not a matter, at least not to me. It’s kind of, I guess, a way of giving back in some strange way. I’ve had a–
Dr. Gayle: That’s your community service?
Vox: Well, you’d be amazed at how happy people are after having one or two orgasms and how thankful they are. So, yeah kind of a community service.
Frank: So, do you sit around and watch or do you busy manning the door and making sure everybody plays by the rules?
Dr. Gayle: Well, he’s a pervert, he has to watch. What do you do, Vox?
Vox: Well pretty much, I orchestrate the party. I make sure that everything’s okay, if there’s a couple who are interested in a single female or single male, I’d make the introductions. I pretty much–I host the event. Also I police it to make sure that the rules are followed, that there aren’t any problems.
Dr. Gayle: So, set us up. How does this all start? You hand out fliers. Do you have people at the door? Like what happens? How does this all come about?
Vox: Well, at this point, I have an online group that well–I’ve been throwing parties for maybe for over 10, maybe 11 years. So, throughout that time, I’ve built up a pretty decent following of people and usually whenever I’m ready to throw a party, I’ll put out an announcement to my group and to other groups that we’re kind of affiliated with. I’ll let them know. They get the date, the specifics. If there is a particular theme for the night, they’ll get all of that.
Usually we like to plan these things at least a few weeks ahead, because people have families and children and things that they need to sort out their schedules.
Frank: Are you telling me that family people participate in this type of activity?
Vox: / Okay, not families.
Dr. Gayle: / And they need a babysitter?
Vox: Husbands, wives participate. They need a babysitter.
Vox: I don’t provide babysitting service.
Frank: Okay, alright.
Dr. Gayle: Did you say, you do provide babysitting services?
Frank: / He said he doesn’t.
Vox: / No, I don’t
Dr. Gayle: Oh, okay.
Vox: I do not. There are no children allowed. No. Children stay away. This is all about the adults. But yeah, families. You’d be amazed at the different types of people who actually attend these parties.
Dr. Gayle: Tell us about it. Tell us about the different types of people.
Frank: Not their names, just-
Dr. Gayle: Obviously.
Vox: No. No, I don’t do that. One of the important things to them is anonymity.
Dr. Gayle: Right. Confidentiality. Very important.
Vox: Exactly, because our society doesn’t accept this as an official lifestyle or as something that–as much as people are interested in it, still doing it and knowing that maybe the person teaching your fifth grade child likes to spend her weekends in basically a pile of different men and women, that does not make them very happy. But, yeah we have teachers, attorneys, entrepreneurs, everything. There have been some semi-famous people who’ve come. This isn’t like the Will and Jada type famous, but some local folks who’ve showed up as well.
Dr. Gayle: What made you say Will and Jada?
Vox: Because of the whole rumor about Will and Jada supposedly swinging.
Dr. Gayle: Just wondered.
Frank: You talked about scheduling the parties.
Frank: How often do you schedule them? I mean, I’m sure there are plenty of people who want to have group sex everyday, every weekend, how do–
Dr. Gayle: You sure there’s many of plenty of people who want to have group sex every weekend, Frank?
Frank: I mean–
Vox: He’s actually right about that. Honestly, I have–
Frank: Thank you.
Vox: Requests for parties everyday. “Vox can you throw a party this Wednesday? What’s going on this weekend?” I throw parties, honestly, when my schedule allows, because for me this is not a business. This isn’t a moneymaking venture–
Vox: See, I told you labor of love. It’s kind of a community service thing.
Vox: But usually, I try to have a party once a month if not more. I may have a large party where it’s open to everyone in the group at least once a month, if I can, if my schedule allows.
Dr. Gayle: How many people show up at your parties? Is there a cap on the number?
Vox: Well, it varies. No, I don’t put a cap on the number. The most I’ve had at one party, 60 people.
Dr. Gayle: At your house?
Vox: Yes, at my apartment.
Frank: Wow. You–
Vox: But that’s throughout the evening. There were not all 60 people there at one time. After we sat back and looked through the guest list, we realized, “Wow, 60 people actually showed up today.”
Dr. Gayle: They just circulate?
Frank: They come in and out.
Vox: Yeah, they just kind of come in–haha, that’s funny. That’s bad. Yeah, they come in and out.
Frank: You said that this isn’t a business, but do you make money?
Vox: Very honestly. On the party with 60 people then yeah, of course.
Vox: Mainly because I put out–I provide the condoms, I provide lube, products to clean up, to clean yourself after–whatever. Food–
Frank: And drink?
Vox: Not alcohol.
Vox: I personally do not provide alcohol. Sme parties do, I don’t. But I do–
Dr. Gayle: What’s your reason that you don’t provide alcohol?
Vox: One, the expense of it, very honestly. Given the fact that most of my parties–I don’t. If I provided alcohol, I would have to charge people more.
Dr. Gayle: So, what’s your fee?
Vox: Well, we consider it a donation, because not everyone pays the same amount. Not everyone has to pay, very honestly. For single males, it’s usually about $30, for a couple it’s $25, for single females, it’s free.
Frank: Wow, so a single woman can come by herself.
Frank: A couple will come for $25 and an individual male, who I guess you vetted, and please tell us about that, would come for $30?
Dr. Gayle: What’s the difference in your charges? The price list?
Vox: The difference, really, the women. If there weren’t women invited and there weren’t women at the party, then this would be pretty much a gay event. I don’t have a problem with that. That’s fine. I’ve actually thrown bi-sexual parties for different individuals, but–
Frank: Bi-sexual parties still need women though.
Vox: One would think–
Vox: But that’s not always the case.
Frank: Okay, fill me in.
Vox: Which? On the bi-sexual parties?
Frank: How a woman would need to be there.
Vox: Well, it’s what you call it. Basically a lot of times, a bi-party–there are guys who get together and the guys are bi-sexual.
Dr. Gayle: Explain that further.
Dr. Gayle: I’m confused.
Vox: Yeah. That a bi-party–it’s basically just what you call it. Okay, it’s a bi-party. There may be women of in attendance. There may not be.
Frank: So, it’s bi-sexual males.
Dr. Gayle: A title for men that are gay, to use, so they don’t feel bad by saying it’s a gay party.
Vox: Well, I guess, if they’re okay with coming in and engaging in sex with other guys, they probably have some indication, they’re slightly gay or at least have some gay leanings.
Dr. Gayle: Did you say “gayliness?”
Vox: Gay leanings, I thing.
Dr. Gayle: Gay leanings.
Frank: Okay, the food.
Frank: Is it a full spread or just a bucket of chicken?
Vox: No, I don’t do a bucket of chicken. Yes, it’s a full spread usually. I mean, we go from vegetables and dip to spinach, artichoke dip also with bread. And what? I’ve had like chocolate fountains with fruit and all kinds of stuff. We do have chicken, because fried chicken is good or buffalo wings and things like that, but it’s mainly finger foods, but just a lot of it. Sometimes, apparently, according to my girl, I’ve spent a little too much on the food.
Dr. Gayle: So Vox, I’m interested in how you got started with this and also, how you aren’t interested in swinging, so you say. Can you take us back 10 years ago?
Vox: Yeah, I was underground lap dance parties, basically with a group of friends and–
Dr. Gayle: What’s that? What’s an underground lap dance party?
Vox: You get some strippers you know, you rent a location, you rent a hall or a space, put out some fliers and guys come, They pay to get in and it’s pretty much like a strip club, but it’s mobile.
Dr. Gayle: A mobile strip club.
Vox: It pops up.
Frank: It can go anywhere. / It can happen any place.
Vox: / Yeah, right, exactly. And that’s kind of part of the, I guess the thrill. You know, you never know where it’s going to be or when it’s going to happen. It pops up, people show up, they have a good time.
Frank: Alright. Strip–
Vox; For me that was fun for awhile, but it ended up being too much. It was a business. It was too much about money and the “sexually charged” environment or atmosphere was kind of fake.
Dr. Gayle: What do you mean?
Frank: They weren’t having sex.
Vox: Well, no. it wasn’t even about having sex. For me, it’s really about even just the, just the attraction, that kind of attraction, the allure of it. But the women were really there for the money
Vox: You know, so it was kind of fake. I ended up online, because we were also promoting those parties online as well. I ended up online and started talking to a few different women who were sharing with me their desires for group sex. And how, one woman in particular, was saying that she really loved this, but she just had a bad experience with some guys. It didn’t work out the way she wanted, what she really wished she had, was some way to have the parties and have somebody do all the prep work; setting up and all that. And I’m like, “Well, I can do that.” So that’s kind of where it started and I threw my first party for her.
Frank; Would you describe yourself? I’m curious. You said you police your parties. Are you a 300 pound guy? Are you one–
Vox: I am not like 6 foot 4 inch, big football player. I’m about 5 foot 7.5 inches, maybe 5 foot 8 inches if I wear some heels or something, I guess. I don’t wear heels. I’m teasing. I’m about 5 foot 7.5 inches, about 250-260. So, I’m not a small guy, but I’m not like huge.
Vox: And I guess, and honestly I’ve built up a good rapport with the people who come to my parties. And I think it’s more out of the matter of respect, really, that people don’t come here and show their tails and act up. Although we’ve had–I mean over 10 or 11 years, you’re going to have some issues, and there have been, but I’ve handled them pretty delicately. I’ve had to eject people from parties–
Vox: For breaking rules.
Frank: Like what? What’s a rule someone broke?
Dr. Gayle: Why don’t you start with the rules and then tell us some of the rules that people have broken.
Vox: Okay, the rules are pretty simple and they’re pretty standard throughout these parties. For me, my first and major rule is, “no” means “no.” Basically it’s about respecting people’s boundaries and limits.
Everyone who comes to the party may not be interested in having sex with you. And this is particularly for men or women. However, I’ve had some pretty aggressive women as well, who I’ve had to pull back. But if a woman is saying “No,” then it’s no. Just because she’s here doesn’t mean well, she’s just, “The whore, the slut. She’s going to do anything with anybody.” No, you treat her with respect. It is still her body
If she wishes to not engage in an activity, then that is her right to say no and I fully enforce that. So that’s the first rule. The other rule which is just as important is, condom use is mandatory for penetration. So, if you’re at my parties, you’re using condoms.
The funny thing is, I actually had a couple who–a married couple who came to the party, they played together and they were talking later about using condoms. I was like, “Well wait. Do you normally use condoms?” And they said, “No, they didn’t.” I’m like, “Well, you didn’t have–I mean this is your husband, your wife. They’re like, “No, no, no. We don’t want to disrespect your party.” Which I felt very honored by that.
Dr. Gayle: Vox, why we’re talking about that, have you heard of soft swinging?
Vox: Soft swinging, yes.
Dr. Gayle: What is that about?
Vox; Soft swinging that’s mainly–okay, first I fill mainly gangbangs and orgies, okay? There are also couple’s parties as well.
Couples parties are typically a bit different from what I typically throw. A couple’s party basically, they’re comprised of couples, people who are involved in relationships; maybe some single females, very rarely single males, okay?
Soft swinging is usually when one or two couples get together and there’s may be some touching, some fondling, but no penetration. They may watch each other engage in sex in the room together, but it’s not a full swap situation.
Dr. Gayle: Now what do you do? The gangbang, orgies; you sound like you’re real hard core. What’s that about?
Vox: I’m not as hard core as many out there, but the gangbangs are–well orgies everybody’s heard of the Roman orgy. A group of people get together for mutual pleasure and everybody’s kind of having sex with everyone.
If it’s not a bi-party, there is not male-on-male interaction, okay? There’re heterosexual orgies and bi-orgies or straight orgies and bi-orgies. I typically throw straight orgies, okay? Gangbangs; usually it’s a situation where there’s one or two females and a larger number of men and these are women who like the attention or want the attention of multiple men.
Frank: What’s more hardcore than you? I mean, what’s going on out there that’s more–
Vox: To me what’s more hardcore?
Vox: Hardcore in the sense that I personally feel that it’s dangerous. What are called raw-dog parties.
Vox: Basically, you come to the party and there’s no kind of protection, no condom usage at all.
Dr. Gayle: Wow.
Frank: You’re not even checking people’s-now, to give an example, there are other parties where they play without condoms. However, everyone who comes they’re required to bring their recent test results. Again, that’s still kind of sketchy for me.
Dr. Gayle: Is “play” synonymous with sex? You say play a lot. Does that mean sex?
Vox: Play. Yes, it is.
Dr. Gayle: Okay.
Vox: Play typically equates to sex. I’m sorry, I–
Dr. Gayle: Now, let me ask you this, Vox. You do not participate in these parties, so you say, and you’re in a committed relationship. Are you married? What’s your relationship status?
Vox: No, I’m not married. I actually have what, for all intense purposes, is a girlfriend. We’ve been together for about six years almost. But I’m also in what’s called the BBSM (bondage, domination, sadomasochism), and that’s another lifestyle and she is basically my submissive.
Dr. Gayle: So you are the real life–what’s that book?
Vox: What the Marquis De Sade?
Frank: The gr–
Vox: Oh, you mean–
Dr. Gayle: Twenty shades of Gray.
Vox: Fifty Shades of Gray.
Dr. Gayle: Fifty Shades of Gray. You’re that guy?
Vox: Yeah, kind of, sort of, kind of, a little bit.
Dr. Gayle: Wow. Well, who started-because in order to be dominatrix, right, someone had to first–
Vox: Dominatrix is female.
Dr. Gayle: Okay, so what’s the guy version?
Vox: It’s a dominate–well the different titles are, let’s see [audorefix] sp 24:45, would be master or mistress, a dominate or dominatrix. I’m a dominate and sometimes master, because I have slaves as well.
Dr. Gayle: Wow. So who initiated you, because someone had to initiate you into the lifestyle. So, who initiated you?
Vox: Oh, honey I was initiated since high school and I initiated myself. I found these things. In high school I was wrapping girls up with gaffers tape and blindfolding them and so, this was honestly an organic thing. It’s like “Oh, this sounds interesting.” Never knew there was some lifestyle, or anything out there. I didn’t find that out until I was maybe 24-25.
Dr. Gayle: How old are you now?
Vox: I’m now 42.
Dr. Gayle: How old is your girlfriend?
Vox: She is 29.
Dr. Gayle: Hmm. Have you been married before?
Dr. Gayle: Do you have children?
Dr. Gayle: So, where is this lifestyle going to lead you? Do you want to get married?
Vox: I think marriage is a wonderful institution. I am not prepared to institutionalized.
Dr. Gayle: Well, you know what? Frank is right on your bandwagon, because he does not believe in monogamy. He thinks his wife should create a fake–what’s it called?
Frank: I don’t know, because you, I mean you would think I wasn’t sitting here. Telling me what I think. Telling them–
Dr. Gayle: Listen, Vox. Frank believe he and his wife should think about their relationship after every two years and if he feels like he wants to opt out, they have that clause. So, I think you guys have something in common on some level. I don’t know if it’s to your level–
Vox: Let me clear this up. But see, let me clear this up. I believe in monogamy. I don’t believe that monogamy–
Dr. Gayle: Wow.
Vox: Is for everyone. That’s why I don’t swing. I’m in a monogamous relationship with my submissive. It’s just the two of us.
Dr. Gayle: Explain that to me, because that’s interesting. Explain that, please?
Vox: Well, how to explain.
Dr. Gayle: In laymen’s terms as best you can.
Vox: Okay, my submissive, she pretty much belongs to me. She is my girl in much the same way that a man would say his wife, that’s his woman. “This is my woman.”
Frank: And would she say the same thing?
Vox: That I’m her man?
Frank: Would she say that she belongs to you?
Vox: Yes, she would.
Frank: Okay, okay.
Vox: And, go ahead.
Dr. Gayle: Go ahead. I have another question, but go ahead.
Vox: First of all, the thing about BBSM, it’s a power exchange relationship; where one person is turning over power to the other. Usually the submissive partner in a relationship turns over power to the dominate part, okay? There are levels though, because you’re allowed to have, what you would call, limits. There are certain things that you will do. There are certain things that you won’t do. Okay? So–
Dr. Gayle: Okay, in the book, Fifty Shades of Gray–I didn’t read the whole trilogy or whatever it was.
Vox: I’ve never read it at all, so go ahead.
Dr. Gayle: Okay, so in the book the guy had her sign a contract. Did you have your girl sign a contract?
Vox: No. We did not sign a contract, although contracts are useful.
Frank: Well, what kind of contracts? What kind of contract did they sign in the book?
Dr. Gayle: Well, in the book, he had specifically what was allowed, what wasn’t allowed, how far he could go, how submissive, how dominate their relationship could be; what she could wear, what she could not wear, what she had to eat. He controlled everything.
Vox: Well, we have in–
Dr. Gayle: Is your relationship like that?
Vox: In our relationship, what we have instead of that are a set of rules that we sat down in the very beginning and went over. And it’s to a certain extent it’s like a contract. It sets up the same things. What is allowed, what she’s comfortable with me doing to her, what I am comfortable with her doing and pretty much how we act within our relationship.
Frank: Now, isn’t part of the comfort being uncomfortable. So, I would imagine part of what the relationship is all about is pushing her past where she would want to comfortably be in terms of dominance. I’m generally asking the question, because I don’t have any clue. So, how does she know where to tell you to stop and how do you know where to not push the envelope?
Vox: That’s where it comes down to really us being connected.
Vox: Me being able to read her and to know her well enough to figure out if we’re participating in a certain act, where it has gotten to the point where it is beyond pleasurable pain.
Vox: And it’s something that she is really in genuine pain and I’m running the risk of hurting her. What we have are things called “safe words.” One, here’s the thing. For any of these activities, for any of these lifestyles, the most important thing is that each individual person must know themselves. If you don’t know yourself then you run the risk of really doing yourself harm or putting yourself in a really horrible situation.
Vox: So, the submissive has to know what her limits are. Now, you can discover them along the way, because as people we grow, we change. What we like yesterday, we may not like tomorrow. So those things do change, but you have to come in with some kind of base.
Vox: And she has a good idea of what things–when we began this, she knew what she liked, what she didn’t and what things that maybe she was interested in, what things she knew she definitely would never be and even some of those have changed
Vox: Throughout the six years.
Frank: You’re listening to Frank Relationships and we’re talking to Vox, a swinger and sex party promoter. Please tell our listeners how they can get in touch with you. Or find your parties, any of that good stuff.
Vox: Okay, well, typically to find the parties you have to go through me or come in through a different-someone who’s already a member or who attends the parties. But you can find me through my email and that is at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Dr. Gayle: Now Vox, let’s get back to your lifestyle and your girl’s.
Dr. Gayle: How did you groom her?
Frank: I get the impression that you have really read a book, because you used groom and contract. I don’t have a clue of what y’all talking about.
Dr. Gayle: Ask your wife, I bet she knows.
Vox: Honestly, a lot of conservation. Really a lot of open and honest conversation about who she was, her past experiences, what she wanted, what I wanted, where we saw this relationship going.
Dr. Gayle: Now, do you think that someone–a woman in say her 30’s or 40’s would be down to be your girl or be in a relationship that you and your girlfriend are in?
Vox: I know some mistresses who are in their 60’s. I know slaves who are in their 60’s. So yeah, I mean these are people who have been active in the BBSM lifestyle for most of their adult lives.
So yeah, I don’t think it’s a matter of age. Some people kind of look at that and go, “Oh well, she’s young, she’s naïve.” Me personally, those aren’t the women that attract me. I like strong women who are independent, who look at me and go “You know, I don’t need you, but there’s something about your character, there’s something about who you are that makes me want to be with you; makes me trust you and believe that you’ll take good care of me and you’ll look out for me.”
Dr. Gayle: You should see Frank’s face right now. You just–
Frank: Yes. Hell, yeah. That’s exactly. I love it, Vox. That is exactly what I appreciate in a woman. A woman who says, “I pick you, because there’s something about you.”
Frank: And there is something about me, I must say. Hah, yeah what you got to say now, Dr. Gayle?
Dr. Gayle: You said that. No one else is supporting you.
Vox: I support you, Frank. I support you.
Frank: My man. Okay, alright, you alluded to this a while ago. You said some women like the attention, but I want to go back to that and what are some of the reasons besides that, that women want to have group sex?
Vox: Wow, honestly
Frank: Or at least, what’s your understanding of it?
Vox: I’ve gotten-because I’ve asked.
Vox: Because I like to know what makes people tick to a large extent and I’ve gotten a lot of different answers. The majority of them really say either, a, they really just want that kind of attention. For them it’s an amazing feeling to be in a room full of guys and know that all these men are turned on by them. Some of them really, it’s about sexual fulfillment. They don’t feel that they can be fulfilled by just sex with one man.
Dr. Gayle: Now, Vox, what about the end of the day and you have this orgy and you have all these organisms that you spoke of earlier? What about the end of the day and you go home and that’s over, what do you think women–since you guys are talking about women–what do you think the emotional aspect? What do you think about that?
Frank: They want to go back next month.
Dr. Gayle: No they don’t. You’re emotionally empty, I would think. What do you think, Vox?
Vox: That’s not necessarily true. The thing is this. I tend to look out for that. I’ve actually had a party where a couple came and apparently I found this out later. The guy talked the girlfriend into coming. It wasn’t something she wanted to do. She participated and afterwards was standing in the corner, kind of with a 50 yard stare. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, but it’s a kind of a heartbreaking thing when a person is staring kind of into blackness. *(inaudible) 35:57
And I had my submissive at the time go and talk to her and then pulled up the guy. I was like, “Look, you can’t do this. I only want people here who are going to come to the party and enjoy themselves.” I can’t control ultimately what things they hide from me. I tend to talk to a lot of the women who come to the parties, before the parties, after the parties, during the parties to check up on them, to make sure they’re okay, that this is something they enjoy. I don’t do this to bring harm to people.
Vox: Even if that’s what they choose to do to themselves. I’ve had women who, oddly enough, have been victims of rape, who have come to the parties and in some way it’s been cathartic for them. Because in their minds, they can control this, they can say when this stops.
Dr. Gayle: So rather than going to therapy, they come to you and participate in orgies?
Frank: He didn’t say they didn’t go to therapy.
Vox: No, I didn’t say that they don’t go to therapy. And honestly, I usually urge people, “Look, if you’re broken in some way, seek therapy. Don’t go to a gangbang, don’t become submissive, don’t go get tied up and beaten. Go somewhere, workout your issues, make sure that / you know what your doing when you’re coming to this place.
Dr. Gayle: / Because you certainly going to have issues when you agree to get tied up and beaten.
Vox: See that’s the problem. We look at these relationships and situations and these lifestyles, thinking, “Oh, these people are messed up.”
Dr. Gayle: Right so–
Vox: No, not everyone is.
Dr. Gayle: So, share a light on that, because as you stated, you’re absolutely correct, oftentimes people say, “Well, something happened in their childhood.” Like you stated, you started this in high school.
Frank: What do you say? You’re a psychologist.
Dr. Gayle: No wait, just let me talk, Frank. So, certain people oftentimes say this happened way back when they had some type of emotional trauma, or some type of trauma early on in life that caused them to agree to be a sex slave; a slave or you’re now someone’s dominate. Now, what happen or did anything happen way back when, to cause you to say, “Wow, I think I want to tie somebody up,” and do whatever that you do with them. Can you shed light on the other side of that, so that folks like me and the other–
Vox: For me, I think it’s really simple as somebody liking a kind of ice cream. Some people liking vanilla ice cream and that’s fine and other people say, “No, I want rocky road.” And it’s funny, because we call people who are not into these lifestyles–into our alternative lifestyles–we call them vanilla people, because they just like straight sex.
I think as a kid I’ve always been fascinated by sex. I stumbled across my uncles Playboy magazines and Hustler magazines and was very interested in this stuff. I didn’t run around chasing little flat-chested girls when I was a kid, because I knew something much better was coming along later.
Frank: So, you were chasing the ones with the boobies? The teachers?
Vox: Yeah, pretty much.
Dr. Gayle: Well, it’s no secret that we’re sexual beings, right?
Dr. Gayle: And so that’s why when people are molested or raped or whatever, early in life as children, it feels good, like sex feels good and it’s pleasurable. But you’re taught to, I guess you know it’s wrong or you shouldn’t do that or things of that nature. So, it sounds like you were sexualized at a very early age.
Vox: Well, to a certain extent, I stumbled across those things. I stumbled across the magazines, but no one ever sat me down and said, “Here son, here’s a magazine. Here’s a playboy magazine, read this.” My uncle wasn’t good at hiding his things.
Vox: Really, so
Dr. Gayle: Okay, so I did a quick little research or Google search and this article in Psychology Today stated that people that participate in the swinging lifestyle, of course, rate their relationships better than they do people that are in monogamous relationships, because they feel like they have the variety. It’s more flexible, wherein people that are in monogamous relationships feel they have a underlying sense of fear, because of how our society is today; that oftentimes people cheat, people get divorced for numerous reasons. Typically or oftentimes because there is some type of, like I sa,id fear, that someone is going to step outside of their relationship. So Vox, do you think that swinging promotes or enhances the relationship? What do you think about that?
Vox: Honestly, from my experience, I think it really depends on the honesty of the two people involved; that, that enhances a relationship, whether it’s swinging or being monogamous. Here’s why; I’ve seen couples who are swingers and they lie. They’ve lied to each other about what it is they truly wanted and even though the couples set-up rules where the guy could go out and he could meet people as long as he brought them back and got the approval of the girl, he still wanted to go out and meet women on the sly. So, he basically–he has what every man wants to a logic standing, his cake and he can eat it too. His woman saying, / “Yeah, you can go out and you can do that.”
Dr. Gayle: So, he’s still lying.
Vox: / But he’s still lying.
Dr. Gayle: It doesn’t matter / if you’re swinging. It doesn’t matter if you’re monogamous.
Dr. Gayle: Okay. So, it doesn’t matter.
Vox: It’s about truth,
Dr. Gayle: Uh-huh.
Vox: It’s about honest–again, being honest with yourself and being honest with your partner. I think therein lies the happiness. I think these people in a monogamous relationships who aren’t happy are because they probably really don’t want to be in a monogamous relationships or they’re with the wrong person, rather than, “We just have to cheat.”
No, I think our society pushes us to pair up as quickly as possible, not to be honest, not to say, “Well you know, I think I want you and I want the girl over there and I want your cousin too.” Whether that’s right, wrong or otherwise, if that’s how you feel, then that’s who you are. You should be comfortable to say that and find the right person who matches you; who’s saying “Yeah, cool, here’s my cousin’s number.”
Dr. Gayle: No matter what type of a lifestyle you’re in, whether you’re into your lifestyle or gangbanging or whatever. Listen Vox, we had a couple on a couple weeks ago and they were interested in or they promote progressive relationships. Have you heard of that?
Vox: What is a progressive–no, I can’t say that I have.
Frank: Open relationships is what the other is–the synonym.
Dr. Gayle: Oh okay, so open relationship.
Vox: Yes, I have heard that.
Dr. Gayle: What do you think about the difference between–and they were clear that they were not swingers. So, what do you think the difference between open relationships and swinging?
Vox: Open relationships, tend-it sounds a little more like polyamory, but it really isn’t. Polyamory is basically multiple loves; people involved in multiple relationships but with one kind of core relationship. An open relationship, from what I understand, it’s–well, let’s look at it this way. Swinging, a lot of times you can go and these are just anonymous people.
Dr. Gayle: Uh-huh.
Vox: Sometimes some of them are friends and people you’ve fostered friendships with. In an open relationship you seem to be seeking other relationships, I mean it’s not just about the sex. It seems to be more about personalities and people to hang out with and then also there may be sex involved.
Dr. Gayle: Do you think that term, open relationship is just some BS to make yourself sound good, to say that you’re not a swinger.
Frank: Oh, if that wasn’t a loaded question.
Vox: I don’t think that’s a blanket statement that can be made. I think for some people I’m sure it is. I’m sure that really there’s some guy saying, “Hey, let’s see. How do I get her to agree to let me have sex with other women? Can’t say swinging. No. Oh, honey let’s have an open relationship.”
Dr. Gayle: That sounds like something you would say, Frank.
Vox: And really what he wants–
Frank: Oh, boy.
Vox: Really what he wants to do is go out and have sex with whoever, because rather than be honest.
Dr. Gayle: “How can I get my wife to agree to this. Man, let’s-”
Frank: Excuse me, can I have a piece of this conversation, please? What makes a person popular at a party? For a guy is it his technique, is it a big Johnson or for a woman is it–
Dr. Gayle: Attractiveness?
Frank: Big boobies? Yeah, what’s your / experience?
Vox: / It varies. It varies, because there are women-first, I throw parties for the average people of the world. Not everyone who comes to my parties have banging bodies. These are your average folks walking down the street that you may see. A lot of them.
Vox: So, yeah, sometimes more–oddly enough, the more attractive, younger girls are the most annoying. Typically because they’re not-these are the girls who typically need to get drunk, so they can justify what they’re doing. And I don’t like those girls at my parties.
Dr. Gayle: Hmm.
Vox: So once you–
Frank: Do you stop them at the door, or you just keep a close eye on them?
Vox: I keep a close eye on them.
Vox: And usually, again, like I said, I talk to a lot of the women, so I get an idea of what’s coming into the party before they get there. And I may stop them before they even show up.
What makes guys popular, yeah, your equipment size. There are women–we call them “size queens”–who tell you very honestly, “If you’re not at least this big, you’re not getting on this ride.” So, equipment size, yeah, but for most of the women, it’s not a matter of how big you are, it’s what you can do with it.
Dr. Gayle: Have you heard of the–I guess it’s a club in New York-“Behind Closed Doors?” I was reading about that and they only allow–I don’t know what the fee is, but they charge a fee and they only allow people that are attractive into their swingers’ club.
Vox: There are clubs like that up in D.C.
Vox: Yeah, but here’s the thing, and most of these are clubs–just because you mentioned the charge thing–a lot of parties aren’t really for single men. That’s another reason why I started doing the parties that I did. What I found were, you had established clubs and people throwing house parties and hotel parties and they were charging men like a hundred dollars a hit just to get in and they may or may not actually participate in anything.
Frank: On a more philosophical basis, I want to talk about what you’ve learned as it pertains to giving in, submitting the beauty of being on the passive side of a relationship. Have you seen that? Is there anything that you can say about that? I mean, we’re typically geared towards being the alpha, being powerful, strong, being the one on top, winning, that sort of thing. And most of us don’t want to talk about the other side, or don’t see beauty in the other side. What do you have to say?
Vox: For me, now, I’m not a submissive, so–
Dr. Gayle: So, he doesn’t know about that lifestyle.
Frank: Well, he could know.
Vox: So, basically what I’m saying is these would be my impressions from what I’ve seen and from conversations I’ve had. First of all, these relationships aren’t just male-dominance, female-submission. There are male submissives as well.
And honestly, you will find that male dominance–some male dominants look down on the male submissives. I don’t.
Vox: Again, I believe in finding yourself. Let’s see, what is the beauty in that?
Frank: And I’m not–
Vox: That’s a hard question for me, really.
Frank: I said you could know, but if that’s not you, you wouldn’t know, but you may very well have an impression.
Vox: Yeah, I mean, my impression is that it’s about feeling loved. You know what? It’s about finding someone you can trust.
Vox: Because as much as people talk about, “I trust this person. I trust that person,” we have a society that, really, that is not based on trust. We really don’t trust each other. Finding someone that you can trust is so difficult and I believe when you’ve found that, when you really look at a person and go, “You know what? Really, I can trust this person with anything. I can trust this person with my life totally. And they love me,” and you love them for that. I think that within itself is a beautiful thing. Because I know personally, that’s one of the draws for me; that a woman will look at me and say, “You know, I do trust you.”
Dr. Gayle: And your girlfriend trusts you?
Dr. Gayle: And obviously you guys don’t have a traditional relationship, but you share, like you’re emotionally connected?
Dr. Gayle: What if–
Vox: We share every–I cry to her. She cries to me. And the thing I really love about her is that she’s not a drama queen. If she has issues, we’ll sit and we’ll talk about it; even if it’s issues with me. It may take awhile for me to drag it out of her, but we can sit down and we can have conversations about this. We can have discussions about these things rather than fights and big blow-up arguments.
Frank: You’re listening to Frank Relationships and we’re talking to Vox, a swinger and sex party promoter. Once again, please tell our listeners how they can get in touch with you.
Vox: Okay, again the easiest way is my email address and that is email@example.com.
Frank: I’ve heard you say quite a few things that correspond with what we are about on this show and it has to do with acceptance. You also talked a little bit about truth and lying. How do you feel about the concept of accepting someone who is lying or not telling the truth? Is it possible? Are you able to get your mind around that? Or is lying just simply all out bad, as far as you’re concerned?
Vox: For me personally, if you lie to me, yeah, that’ll break down some of my beliefs, some of the trust in you. That can be built back up, I guess. That can be re created if I don’t see the things that led to the lie in the first place. I’m not sure if I made sense with that.
Dr. Gayle: Well, it sounds like despite what type of lifestyle you are invested in, it kind of sounds like you are all about honesty and being open.
Frank: What do you mean, despite the type of lifestyle he’s invested in?
Dr. Gayle: I mean, despite–
Frank: What does that have do with–
Dr. Gayle: Well, despite of being a “vanilla,” like he would call someone in a monogamous relationship or–
Frank: He did not. No, no
Vox: No, no, no. Let me clear that up.
Dr. Gayle: Okay.
Frank: Let me try to clear it up, Vox.
Vox: A person in a monogamous–because I’m in a monogamous relationship–
Vox: I’m not vanilla at all. Vanilla–the definition of it is someone who does not participate in alternative lifestyles or alternative sexuality–
Dr. Gayle: Okay.
Vox: Be it spanking, hair pulling, name calling, whatever it is– people just like, “We like our nice little sex. It’s always missionary or doggie-style for, you know, *(inaudible) 52:57 and sprinkles,” but–
Dr. Gayle: Did you hear his tone?
Frank: Yes, I got it.
Vox: Otherwise, it’s very vanilla ice cream. But see the truth is, there’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t look down on those people. Like rock on, you deal with what makes you happy.
Dr. Gayle: Right, so thanks for the clarification, but I think or we’re saying the same thing. Despite, you’re off-the-wall, head banging sex verses someone else who is vanilla with sprinkles and ice cream, you still value trust and honesty. And I think you would have to in order to participate in, especially, an alternative lifestyle, it sounds like.
Vox: Yeah, I think that’s definitely needed in order to have a successful relationship and really to get the most out of these lifestyles. I think that’s needed.
Frank: Drugs? Are drugs allowed at the parties?
Frank: Not even marijuana?
Frank: Okay. Traditional relationship, we talked about in many different points here in the show, but my thing is how do you even know what a traditional relationship is? Because, when you look at a couple, you have no idea and when you’re out in public or at the grocery store, you don’t have any idea what this couple does. We’re typically assuming that they’re “a traditional relationship,” but they could be at his parties.
Dr. Gayle: Getting it in.
Frank: What’s a traditional relationship? And I’m throwing that to both of you all.
Vox: I don’t know anymore. Well no, a traditional relationship is a man and a woman. They only have sex with one another. Now, I don’t know if that–
Dr. Gayle: No, you can’t say that, Vox, / because you and your girlfriend–
Frank: / You think they only have.
Dr. Gayle: You stated, only have sex with each other, so you guys certain are not traditional. So–
Vox: That’s what I mean. That’s what I was going into. I’m not sure if that lends itself to the sex that they have. You know, what activities they participate in, but the relationship itself, is traditional. For me, something that is non-traditional is something like polyamory, where you have multiple partners involved in one relationship; like a whole group of people all in love, living together, sexing together. But a traditional relationship is a man and a woman.
Dr. Gayle: And then, so according to you, you and your girlfriend, you guys are traditional all the way round, with the exception of your alternative sexual lifestyle. Like you share things, you are emotionally on the same level. It’s just that you guys–And I guess, are you the dominate only in the bedroom? Like outside of the bedroom, are you guys on the same wavelength?
Vox: I’m the dominate period. We’re on the same wavelength, but I listen to what she wants, what her thoughts, her opinions, but I make the final call.
Dr. Gayle: So, you don’t really like a strong woman, you don’t like some–
Frank/Vox: That’s not true.
Frank: That’s not.
Vox: That’s not true, because here’s the thing. The difference is a weak woman, she doesn’t have an opinion. Whatever my opinion is, she’s good with that. “That’s okay. I don’t care. We do whatever you want to do.” A strong woman is going to voice her opinion, but she has enough trust in me that I will look at the situation and say, “Yeah, I hear what you’re saying honey, but I think this is the best way to do this.”
Frank: And she’ll step back in and allow that to happen.
Dr. Gayle: So, is your girlfriend–stop Frank. Is your girlfriend your slave?
Vox: No, she’s not submissive. A slave is different. A slave, to a larger extent, has few if any limits at all. A slave does whatever her master says period, end of story.
Dr. Gayle: And that’s the type of woman that you are not attracted to?
Vox: No, you can still have strong women who are slaves.
Dr. Gayle: Hmm. I guess we’ll have to have you on to talk further about that.
Frank: Alright Vox, back to the party for a few minutes
Frank: A person shows up, pays their money, walks in the door, what’s next? Take off your clothes?
Vox: No, there’s some parties that do that. You have to be naked the moment you come through the door. For me, no. Again, it’s about people being comfortable.
Dr. Gayle: Well set us.
Vox: They come in–
Dr. Gayle: Give us a quick overview of your party.
Vox: Okay, they come in. They give their donation. They come upstairs. If this is their first time they get a quick tour of everything, they get introduced to people. For the first hour, maybe hour and a half of the party, it’s a social hour, where people catch up with old friends, make some new friends, try to size things up to see who they will be interested in playing with or just hanging out with for that evening.
After that hour and a half, roughly, I pull everyone together and we go through the rules. I went through that, no means no, condom usage, clean up after yourselves and respect everybody here. After it’s open–unless we have some special event going on, like recently we have what’s called the Hitachi magic wand throw down. We’ll have to talk about that another time.
Frank: I’m scared to ask.
Dr. Gayle: Yeah, we’ll just table that for next time.
Vox: It was fun. It was a lot of fun. But then, people pair off and they go and–actually after the rules, sometimes people just go back to hanging out and talking, getting a little something to drink and then maybe a couple or a few people will go off into one of the play rooms and they’ll start engaging in sex and then other people may join them.
So, it’s a no-pressure atmosphere. And I even tell them, “Look, if all you want to do is sit around and stare at my big screen TV and watch movies all night, feel free. Knock yourself out, if that’s what you want to do. If you want to do other things, feel free.”
Frank: What happens if someone comes late and misses the session that you do about rules?
Vox: Then I pull them to the side. If they’ve never been to the party before then we go through the tour and while we’re doing the tour I explain the rules to them and make sure they understand.
Frank: Okay. You’ve listening to Frank Relationships. We’ve been talking with Vox, a swinger and sex party promoter. Once more Vox, please tell our listeners how they can get in touch with you.
Vox: My email address is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Frank: Along today’s journey, we’ve discussed what makes a popular swinger at a party, the definition of soft swinging and trust.
I hope you’ve had as much fun as I have had talking with Vox about swinging, sexual parties, orgies and any other sexual escape we could think of. As always, it’s my wish for you to walk away from this conversation with a heaping, helping of useful information that well help you create a relationship that’s as loving and as accepting as possible.
Frank: As always I hope that you’re walking away from this conversation with a heaping, helping of useful information that will help you create a relationship that’s as loving and accepting as possible. Let us know what you thought of today’s show at facebook/relationshipflove, on twitter at @mrfranklove or at franklove.com. Until next time, keep rising, This is Frank Love.