Podcast Episode:
Brothers, what does it mean to love and what does it mean to forgive? This is man-talk, no goo … on this edition of Frank Relationships.
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FRANK RELATIONSHIPS: DEEP FORGIVENESS WITH DARRYL C. GREEN III
Guests: Darryl C. Green III
Date: Octoer 10, 2016
Frank: Brothers, what does it mean to love and what does it mean to forgive? This is man talk, no good… on this edition of Frank Relationships.
Yeah. As always, those are my babies. Thanks for getting daddy’s daughter today.
President and principal consultant of Deep Forgiveness, Darryl C. Green III is with us today and I am curious… Now that the man that killed your brother’s out of prison, why you working with him?
Darryl: I’ll say to you good morning, Frank and the listening audience. I’m working with him because it is a part of my journey. It’s a part of my healing journey. I was in the dark at one point and I’m moving towards the light. I’m trying to share our story. I want to share our story. A lot of folks sweat the small stuff and most of the things are small stuff. And so what we’re trying to do is by sharing our story of healing, reconciliation and forgiveness, hopefully we’ll help some other folks along their journey and move from the darkness into the light.
And so that’s why I’m working with him… to help to breathe life and help to move some other folks around the world who are in bondage, help moving them from being to bondage to being free. Forgiveness is a choice. Forgiveness is freeing. And so, it helped to free me and so I want to help—we want to help free others.
Frank: Why is forgiveness a path towards freedom and hope?
Darryl: Again, freedom is a choice and it is… it’s almost like drinking poison and expecting somebody else to…
Frank/Nancy: Die.
Darryl: …to die. You know? And so… hurt people, hurt people. And so we’re trying to again help to move folks… to be able to look through a different set of lenses… Sometimes we wear those lenses, our own lenses for so long to get dirty, to get cracks and to get scrapes in it. to be able to help them look through a different set of lenses, and just it’s freeing… I lived for a long time with anger. And I said that “you got my little brother but you won’t get me.” If two of us walking the room, I’m going walk out. [unclear] how what happened. I’m going to walk out and so I asked [unclear] and I’m just going to be bold about it. I asked god to give me something other than anger and he gave me forgiveness and healing. And so, that has been our mission, just to help to breathe life into other folks and to help them along their journey.
Frank: Nice.
Welcome to Frank Relationships, a show for you my brethren who like me, are too young to be considered old and too old to be considered young. It’s also for those of you that love and support us. We’re here to provide weekly wisdom, conversation and the information that’ll help create loving and flexible parents and partners.
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Greetings to my super duper co-host Nancy Goldring.
Nancy: Hi Frank.
Frank: How the heck are you?
Nancy: Never better.
Frank: That’s great to hear. The consummate generalist is in the house.
Nancy: Indeed.
Frank: Ha-ha. Today’s guest is an advocate for the restoration of families and economic empowerment for the disenfranchise. He’s also a starch proponent for libertarian, reconciliation and forgiveness. Pegged by industry professionals as an innovative change agent on mental health, healing, social welfare and social justice, and inspired by the gospel mandates to love, serve and teach. He served as a leader of efforts to battle homelessness, murder, substance abuse and incarceration.
So, if you like me, want to know why healing is important, how to forgive and what in the world agape love is, then stay tuned as your Frank Relationships team talk with coach, consultant, trainer, facilitator and the president and principal consultant of Deep Forgiveness, Mr. Darryl C. Green III.
Welcome to the show.
Darryl: Thank you Frank, thank you Nancy.
Nancy: You’re welcome. Welcome.
Frank: Before we get too deep in today’s subject matter, I want to check in and see what’s going on in the news or in the world of relationships.
Nancy: Mercy.
Frank: Brother Green, please don’t be bashful.
Darryl: Alright.
Frank: We want your thoughts too. You got something for me, Nancy?
Nancy: I think you got something for me, Frank.
Frank: Ah okay, alright.
Nancy: I just have that feeling.
Frank: Okay, alright. We are following up on last week’s segment.
Nancy: Okay.
Frank: When we talked about Dr. John Gottman.
Nancy: Yes.
Frank: And he has three research based tips for successful relationships that he found in people who are in successful relationships. And we talked about the first one last week, which was expressed interest. You remember that?
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: Okay. You in…
Nancy: Expressing interest? I expressed interest already. That was easy.
Frank: Did you express interest in your environment?
Nancy: Yeah, yeah… because I am interested.
Frank: You are.
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank; You’re class [unclear].
Nancy: Thank you.
Darryl: All day, every day.
Frank: You do.
Darryl: All day.
Frank: Wife says to you, “guess what happened to me”, you actually respond, “What’s up, babe? What happened?”
Darryl: Yes, yes. Listen man… I’m [unclear]… my wife and I’ve been together for 27 years now.
Nancy: Nice.
Darryl: So listen, I’m real clear that she’s the command in chief.
Frank: Alright.
Darryl: And we have two daughters in industry journalist. But at the end of the day, I’ve got veto power. And so it’s such a beautiful journey that we’ve been on. Good days, bad days… If somebody tells you they’ve been together for 27 years and it’s been peaches and cream and everything nice, then they’re lying.
Nancy: Somebody wasn’t there.
Darryl: See Nancy, somebody wasn’t in it.
Nancy: Somebody wasn’t there.
Darryl: Yeah.
Frank: Well we got number 2.
Nancy: Okay.
Frank: Which is “Be gentle in conflict.” Here’s what he wrote… “Avoid criticism or blame and instead, focus on your own needs. For example, instead of saying “you never help around the house”, focus on what you do need by stating “the house needs cleaning and I would really appreciate some help.” Avoid statements of “you never” or “you always” because a core research finding was that the masters—meaning those in relationships that he considered masters and being in those relationships and the skill set that they bring remain positive and conflict by listening to their partners without criticizing, becoming defensive, shutting down, or acting superior.”
The last piece—acting superior. That’s powerful.
Nancy: Is that big for you?
Frank: I mean, that’s… If you think about the act of acting superior to someone, that’s—
Nancy: When you think you’re right especially…
Frank: Yeah, yeah. I mean that’s really kind of the grounds of acting superior, thinking that you know better.
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: That’s powerful.
Darryl: Yeah.
Frank: That’s powerful. Be gentle in conflict. Instead of beating your partner up, figure out a way to…
Nancy: Are you all gentle I conflict?
Darryl: Well that was a learning thing.
Nancy: Stop throwing [unclear]?
Darryl: Yeah that was a learning thing. And what I had to also realize is that there’s life and death in the tongue. And some of the things that you say, you can’t take back.
Nancy: You can’t take back any of it.
Darryl: No and so… there’s… Be mindful with words that come out of your mouth. If you are upset, walk away and come back… and my wife and I learned again even after being in this relationship for so long, we watch a show—maybe a couple of weeks ago and the husband and wife were in a very intense argument, just going back and forth. And the guy said, “Well, I’ll see you upstairs about half an hour.” I mean, “I’ll see you upstairs and we’re done with the conversation. I’ll see you upstairs,” and she says, “Well, just give me half an hour.” She needed that time just to regroup. But half an hour was over and they kept moving. And what’s beautiful, and my wife and I looked at each other like, what? That was awesome.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: And so let’s… So we say, “Well see you upstairs in half an hour.” And then we’ll both laugh but it was just a gentle way of moving beyond the conflict and moving into just a beautiful space.
Nancy: But they actually had the conflict. They had the back and forth, the rigor, the intensity…
Darryl: Oh yeah.
Nancy: The fiery words and tones…
Darryl: Straight fire.
Nancy: Really? And then they could back up and say…
Darryl: Yes. Because they looked at the bigger picture. And for us, we have to model for our children.
Nancy: Sure.
Frank: All the time.
Darryl: And they are always watching, and they are always listening when you don’t think they’re listening. And so… Sometimes our children will say, “Daddy, I don’t like when you and mommy…” “Listen, listen… It’s life. We have a disagreement. We still love each other and we’re still going to be here.” And being able to show it in a loving way. Well come in back downstairs and giving her a hug while the girls can see. Can see that exchange… that it’s fire for a second but we come back.
Frank: We’re back.
Darryl: Yeah.
Nancy: Wow. I like what you said though. You said there’s a bigger picture.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: And I feel like if two people are together and the size of the picture is only he makes me happy, she’s sexy, she looks good on my arm, he buys me things, like if that’s the picture… then you’re heading for the wall.
Darryl: Yeah.
Nancy: Because when something big comes up, you don’t have anything, you’re not grounded in anything that will sustain you.
Darryl: Let me add to that, Nancy.
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: In my household, in our relationship, I can’t make you happy.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: You got already be happy. I can enhance your happiness but if you got some other stuff going on, you’ve got to fix that as your mate. All my wife can do is enhance my happiness and she does it very well. And all I can do is enhance her happiness. And again, getting back to the bigger picture because we’re not only husband and wife but we’re parents. And a lot of times, we got to keep that out in the fore front.
Nancy: Yes.
Darryl: That we’ve got two daughters we’re watching and so bigger picture.
Nancy: But you know what, Darryl, I submit to you that two people have to figure out what the bigger picture is for them.
Darryl: Yes.
Frank: I agree.
Nancy: Only because lots of people have two daughters, two sons, a house full of kids.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: And they still don’t stay together. They don’t toll the line.
Darryl: Yes.
Frank: And maybe they shouldn’t.
Nancy: Well I’m not saying that they should but—
Frank: Like you said they got to figure out for themselves.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: Yeah, they got to figure it for themselves because what I’m hearing at what you’re saying is that your commitment to your children is such that it fuels your capacity to move through the tough spots and keep it moving, keep it moving together. Whatever drama comes up isn’t bigger than your commitment to your girls or to your love for each other.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: Right? So but if I’m not authentically motivated by being a parent, then if something wild happens and I felt oh I can’t… this is getting on my nerves, you spend too much money… whatever people’s issues are. Then again, you’re heading for the wall.
Darryl: Yeah.
Nancy: So if you don’t know even if your partner doesn’t know what they’re committed to that’s really bigger than themselves. When I hear bigger picture, I’m hearing bigger than yourself.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: If you’re not up to something that’s bigger than yourself, then those things that you deem smaller than yourself, one false move and the whole house of cards is coming down.
Darryl: I think for us, we’re just all in. we’re all in.
Nancy: Nice.
Darryl: We’re all in. [unclear] what it is, [unclear] die, we’re all in.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: And I don’t have to worry about… I don’t have to worry about does she have my back? She [unclear] sometimes but she [unclear] times.
Nancy: I hear you.
Darryl: And… But she’s got my back and we’re just all in. And it’s a beautiful piece to know that somebody’s riding with you when you’re trying to keep the lights on. We try to pay the mortgage. They’re riding with you.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: And so just being all in. so I’m blessed to have a beautiful queen by my side.
Nancy: Excellent.
Frank: Very nice.
Okay, Brother Green… and you’re going to hear me call this gentleman Brother Green because he’s frat.
Darryl: Yes, sir.
Frank: Give it up.
Darryl: Yes, sir.
Frank: Like a [unclear].
Darryl: ‘Til the day we die.
Frank: Absolutely.
Darryl: Purple and gold.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: Yes, yes. Getting it in.
Frank: I rarely—I don’t think I’ve ever said this on the show but 302 sign—
Nancy: 302 sign sounds like something I’m going to be getting in my email as a [unclear] to [unclear].
Darryl: 187—
Nancy: Oh my goodness.
Darryl: [unclear]. [unclear] Livingston College. [unclear] North Carolina. Just a shoutout to all the brothers [unclear]. We love you all men and we just trying to keep pushing.
Frank: Here, here. You got something to say Jeff? You look like you want [unclear]…
Nancy: Please… You got any numbers?
Jeff: Nah, I reached my [unclear] and I hear you brothers say…
Darryl: In a room, we in this purple ya’ll. [unclear] but it’s purple. The purple. [unclear] purple.
Nancy: There is no accident [unclear] in the universe.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: I should tell you as I look around.
Jeff: I will say this though… The dedication and sense of community that fraternities provide those communities, adds to the strenght and family.
Darryl: Yes.
Jeff: Because there is that understanding, there is the work—it’s like sports and music.
Nancy: Sure.
Jeff: You work together for the good of the bigger.
Darryl: Yes.
Jeff: That I can guarantee you, when you were 28 years of marriage, all of the things you just explained changed a whole lot over time.
Darryl: Oh yeah.
Jeff: And so, you see marriages break up within the first 2-5 years. You make it pass a few hurdles then you know how to hurdle.
Darryl: Yes.
Jeff: And it becomes easier.
Nancy: Nice.
Darryl: Jeff, you just said the grandest thing homerun, man.
Jeff: Thank you.
Frank: He does that periodically.
Nancy: He’s [unclear]…
Jeff: Now I have to go back to pushing my buttons.
Nancy: He’s cute grad chapter.
Frank: Watch yourself.
Darryl: I look and said [unclear]. Hold on Nancy. Hold on Nancy.
Frank: Alright. Alright, alright, alright…
Nancy: Get on the stage somewhere… [unclear] early. This was straight man talk. I’m like why did I fight the traffic to get in here??
Frank: Alright, Brother Green let’s get to the good stuff.
Darryl: Alright.
Nancy: Okay.
Frank: Tell me about your journey towards healing, reconciliation and forgiveness.
Darryl: Well I’ll say to you, Frank, it’s been a long journey with a lot of stops and starts. Deep forgiveness is I am again healing [unclear], healing a line, to [unclear] healing [unclear], it could be healing Mexico. But healing Baltimore, one person, one family, one community at a time. Deep forgiveness is my younger brother, Reuben, went bowling. He checked his shoes, he used their shoes.
Frank: What year was this?
Darryl: This was 1988. And a young man who’s 15 years old went behind the counter and took a shoe out, [unclear] broke out. And the manager put the other young man out. he armed himself, he came back and he stabbed him. He died 4 days later, shock trauma in Baltimore. As a result of that, his life has changed forever. My life has changed forever. My family’s life has changed forever. He had first degree murder and got life. He applied for modification of his sentence but he spent 25 years in jail.
And so, imagine a 15 year old young man going to jail in a [unclear] institution and serving 25 years. And so he came in for modification of his sentence. My dad and I, we went to court and we testified on his behalf because we forgave him.
Frank: Were you in touch with him before that?
Darryl: No, man. I had just been working on it myself. And so wherever I would speak across the country and I would always infuse my brother’s story in. so we talked about choices or consequences that you make. I would always infuse his story and I would always just talk about him in making the right decisions because some decisions you make you can’t take back… to young folks, to older folks.
So we forgave him and as a result of that, the judge modified his sentence from life, suspended all life but 30 years. He had been there for 25, almost 26 years. And so, I went but had not been in contact with him because the criminal justice system would not tell you where the perpetrator, what facility is. I mean, I’ve got friends so… probably [unclear] early on I probably would have…
Nancy: See him sooner?
Darryl: Right.
Nancy: Okay.
Darryl: So again, I was full with anger, Nancy.
Frank: Let’s be clear. When you say “seen him sooner”, I think you mean something different—
Darryl: I think we have a different definition.
Nancy: Okay.
Frank: Right.
Darryl: Yeah.
Nancy: Got it.
Darryl: But we’ll keep going. Yeah so… Nonetheless, I asked the judge, again, all part of my healing, Frank. I asked the judge, once he modified the sentence, “Could I shake his hand?” and we’ve all been in courts and I went beyond the judge says “Now the man opposes” and I went beyond those swinging doors in. He had a 3-piece seat on. What I call 3-piece [unclear], there’s shackles around his arms, around his waist and around his ankles. And then I asked… I shook his hand and I knew that the hand he shook my hand with was the one that he used to kill my brother. Again, all part of my healing process. I needed that for me, I needed to shake his hand, I needed to look into his eyes and Frank, I was crying and he was crying. And I said, “God has just given you a second chance. And that you’ve been known for taking life. So now, let’s you and I go to go and save some lives together.”
Frank: You said that right there?
Darryl: I said it right there and it’s on the recording. The [unclear]. Three weeks later, I had been in contact with his aunty. Let me back up a second, after we forgave him, both sides of the family we came out in the hallway and attorneys and everybody. I asked did they believe in prayer and we all held hands and prayed. Prior to that, the mom, when he did a recess Frank and Nancy, for 25 years, we’ve looking for somebody to say they were sorry, remorse or something. They did a recess and everyone of his family members kind of stood in line and gave my father a hug. That was such a powerful piece and that began the journey. That began—because why should we hate you? Why should you hate us? We didn’t do it. And so the family began to mend in that recess.
After they made a final decision, we all came out afterwards and prayed. And it was—I put the position, my father, on one side, the mother on the other side of my father and his father who had some stuff going with him. He came and apologized to me but he didn’t say remorse to me and I said, “Well I was only his brother. There’s my dad right there.” So I purposely put his momma on one side of my father and his dad on the other side. We prayed some kind of hard in that room.
Three weeks later, I had been talking to his aunt, trying to make plans to go to [unclear] to visit him. Three weeks later, I get a phone call outside my work saying “This is Darryl Green, can you come outside? I have a gift for you.” And it was his mother, his aunty—
Frank: And him?
Darryl: —and the young man who took my brother’s life. And we stood on the steps of my work and we cried and prayed, and we cried and prayed and then of course, man. Frank and Nancy, one week later I had him back in my work and it was just him and I. We had like a “let’s come to Jesus meet”.
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: Just him and I and raised voices, more or less mine. But what was more important to me at that particular time, it’s a social work. You have to be able to… sometimes you got to go back in order to move forward.
Nancy: Yes.
Darryl: And so, I had to go back and move forward and then what was more important was forgiveness. And I asked him how did he feel when he heard us say in court that we forgave him. I pushed the record button and I will tell you, it was 33, 34 minutes of straight power. He said 3 seconds, 3 seconds of rage, 3 seconds of anger is all it took. And that he could not take it back and that he was… He thought he was in a dream because when we said that we forgave him, he was expecting us to say “rot in jail, da, da, da…”
Nancy: Right, sure.
Darryl: All these other things, Nancy and for him to hear that we forgave him, he said it was surreal to him. He couldn’t believe it. so I talked to him just about every Friday.
Frank: Meaning to this day?
Darryl: To this day. Christmas time, I talk to him. He’s been—I’ve got to be able to get some folks stuff for Christmas. We met at the local mall and… gave him a couple dollars and he went and did his thing. But just helping him along his journey… because although we’ve forgave him, he’s struggling, Frank.
Nancy: To forgive himself?
Darryl: With forgiving himself.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: Right? And so, my friends are like… and some of my fraternity brothers are like, “Man, what are you doing? Have you lost your mind?” and I said, “Man, it’s not me. It’s god. It’s not me, it’s god. So I’m just trying to be obedient and just do his will.” And so the first time man, we sat on a panel together. Folks did not know the connection. He sat on one end, I sat on the other end and someone asked him, he’s beginning to tell a story that he went to jail for 25 years and then someone asked how did it affect his family. Then another audience asked how did it affect the victim’s family. I still said nothing. We had clergy and others on the panel and then when I got an opportunity to speak, I said, “What you guys don’t know, is that the young man life that he took was my younger brother.”
And it was like an atomic bomb, Frank, blowing up in the room.
Nancy: Oh I’m sure.
Darryl: And even the clergy who sat on the panel with us was like, “Dude, I preach this every Sunday…”
Nancy: But they ain’t living it.
Darryl: But there you go, Nancy, come on.
Nancy: Alright.
Darryl: He said, “As a pastor, I don’t think I can do that.” But I think the message is bigger – healing, reconciliation and forgiveness is bigger because as I said earlier, we’re trying to help you to move from being in bondage to being free. But it was a long process for me. It’s not an easy process but forgiveness is a choice.
Frank: Absolutely.
Darryl: Healing is a choice. We got brothers and sisters right now not speaking to each other.
Nancy: Sure.
Frank: Yup.
Darryl: Husbands and wives, fathers and sons, mothers and daughters… I’m saying don’t wait because it might be too late.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: You now, you tripping because of relationship and the lack of relationship you’ve had with your father. He wasn’t this, he wasn’t that. And what I say to folks is maybe, just maybe he was doing the best he knew how. Not to get him off the hook but maybe he was doing the best he knew how. And god forgave us so why can’t we forgive others?
And so, that’s the bigger message that it’s freeing.
Frank: You spoke of the atomic bomb in the room when you said your relationship with the brother… There’s another atomic bomb I want to hear about and that was when you blew up in that one-on-one, sitting in a room just the two of you. How did that look and how did that all… How did he withstand that? How did you do it without completely going off? How did that look?
Darryl: Well, it’s a great question, Frank. I will tell you that there was a lot of restraint there. I was nervous so I knew he was nervous. I did not want to destroy what we were trying to do before we had an opportunity to do it. So it was… He just listened. He listened to me because I want to know what happened. I want to know… and that’s why he was asking, it just took 3 seconds, man, of rage and if I could take it back, I would. Very remorseful and I think that kind of helped me…
Frank: Yeah.
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: …not to go—
Nancy: Nuts.
Frank: Even deeper.
Darryl: Yeah. You know, but… And so as I said it before, there’s life and death in the tongue and I understood what the bigger picture was which was we can save some other folks. We can assist some other folks in their journey. So… it didn’t last very long. It was just…
Nancy: You needed to [unclear]?
Darryl: I needed to get it off me.
Nancy: Yeah, yeah.
Darryl: It’s like what Erykah Badu—
Frank: Bag lady.
Darryl: Bag lady. I was carrying all this baggage.
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: And that my opportunity to get that stuff off of me.
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: Right? To peel that old skin, that old leathery stuff that had dried up but it was still heavy on me and I needed to get that off of me… and he listened. It was like a dance. It was like a beautiful dance that sometimes when I step on your shoe, even when you step on my shoe—
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: But we were trying to create these beautiful walls.
Frank: You were trying to figure it out together.
Darryl: Right. And so that’s it, Frank. We were trying to figure it out together and I knew… Even with having the camera in the room. Right? And I had to just say “Look, I’ve got this camera here and I probably should have recorded the entire journey.”
Frank: So this was 2004, around that time?
Darryl: What’s this… No, no. this is 2 years ago.
Frank: 25? Okay. Alright, alright.
Darryl: Yeah. He went to 20… He came home about a little over 2 years ago.
Frank: Okay, alright.
Darryl: And so that was that part, the beginning of that journey. And so… I knew—
Nancy: Say you wish you turned the camera on…
Darryl: Yeah, thanks Nancy. I wish but I don’t want to spook him.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: One just having a camera in the room at all.
Nancy: That was like security.
Darryl: Right.
Nancy: Having the camera on was like yeah record…
Darryl: So I didn’t turn it on and the first time I turned it on because that was what was important to us, was for me was forgiveness right?
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: So if I call him right now and say “Listen man, I’m in DC. I need you right now.” If he doesn’t have a car, he’ll get on a bicycle and start riding in this direction. That’s the relationship that we’ve formed. That’s the bond that we have formed. Sometimes I’ll be on the phone talking to him and my baby girl Lilian will say, “Daddy, was that the guy who killed your brother?” and I’ll say, “Yes.” I would tell you that… sometimes it’s… I ask folks to pray for me all the time because—
Frank: You ain’t done?
Darryl: I ain’t done.
Frank: You got work to do?
Darryl: I ain’t done.
Frank: You’re trying to still figure it out?
Darryl: Yeah, man.
Nancy: Yeah, well I’ve really appreciate what you’re saying and I’m annoyed with myself. Yesterday I read a passage from a book that was on forgiveness.
Darryl: [unclear].
Nancy: And not having any clue, what I would be talking about…
Darryl: Today.
Nancy: …this morning.
Darryl: Confirmation.
Nancy: And the one thing it said that kind of surprised me was that you wanted to go thorough whatever your processes were and that forgiveness without going through your anger, your rage, your pain wasn’t real. And that… So okay so it said it wasn’t real, however, once you move through those places to not forgive when you know you’ve gotten to a healing space—
Darryl: Come on.
Nancy: —makes your heart hard.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: And I noticed when I read that, I thought the pain, the rage and the anger was what made your heart hard. Those things are in your heart asking to be purged. It’s having purged those things—
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: —knowing that you really aren’t as angry as you had been that a lot of the wound has healed.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: But you maintained the stance of anger and rage and hurt and pain.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: That you feel maybe you have to do for the person who’s gone, you know, like you can’t forgive this person because he took your brother’s life and so in honor of your brother, you have to stay mad, you have to stay angry.
Darryl: Right.
Nancy: And that’s the poison.
Darryl: Yes, yes.
Nancy: And it doesn’t free you, it doesn’t free him and… one might even argue that it doesn’t free your brother’s spirit.
Darryl; Come on.
Frank: What I want to add to what you’re saying is sometimes, we just need models. Well sometimes we don’t know.
Nancy: Right, right.
Frank: The only model we have is anger and vengeance. And if we—
Nancy: People can be proud of their anger.
Frank: Absolutely.
Darryl: Yeah.
Frank: Oh and every form of life.
Darryl / Nancy: Yes.
Frank: Whether it be relationships…
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: Just your family, romantic, whatever have you… But when you know that there was someone out here, hold up. If I just stop and think, Brother Green did this. And how did he do it? And you may need to call him and say “Okay, I need some help here.”
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: “Help me, talk to me. Talk me through this.”
Nancy: Right, right.
Frank: And it’s certainly nothing anybody wasn’t to experience.
Darryl: Right.
Nancy: No.
Frank; However, somebody will. And to know that there’s a model out there that can help you move through whatever it is you’re going through, whatever you consider to be your source of anger…
Nancy: Right.
Frank: …it’s a powerful thing.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: What we’re trying to do Frank man, we try to get folks to slow the bus down. Sometimes our buses are moving so fast that we can’t hear each other, we can’t see each other… Just like early in the morning, you just say hello. Five letters.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: Just to say hello. You can take us on this beautiful journey if we allow it. Frank, I’ll tell you man… we’re going into churches, synagogues, your backyard, your dining table, your men’s group at church, your women’s group, and the whole entire congregation, colleges, universities, businesses… because there are major companies right now need some healing.
Nancy: Oh no question.
Darryl: Right?
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: I was working at school last week and two faces of the school… what your…
Frank: Assistant principal and the principal?
Darryl: No, no. not those. I mean just… with the folks you walking to the office.
Nancy: Oh wow…
Frank: Okay, alright.
Darryl: The folks where you walk into the office, that’s the first—when you’re calling the phone…
Nancy: Yes.
Darryl; That’s the first folk you go see, the first folks go answer their phone and just to see the dynamics of those two going back and forth and I’m saying my, my… there is some stuff that needs to happen right here. And so, when we talk about healing, reconciliation and forgiveness, we’ve got to have those difficult conversations or courageous conversations that folks don’t want to have.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: You keep running for a minute, [unclear] from it…. No, let’s put the work in.
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: Let’s have some ground rules first. Let’s look at the end game is going to be, what we want it to be, the agape peace. What do we wanted to be? Utopia, the land of happiness, pure pleasure. We may never reach that.
Nancy: Okay.
Darryl: But we can surely—
Nancy: Striving for it…
Darryl: —start moving in that direction. So organizations, man, there’s some organizations that are struggling that are painful right now that can use this modelling aspect, can use this because what we’re trying to do is continue to breathe life. Breathe life and help people because sometimes we get stuck in that anger.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: And that other stuff…
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: That baggage. And before you know it, I didn’t make that phone call the right time, that person I was angry with, they’ve gone on done, you know. They’re gone.
Frank/Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: They’re gone.
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: [unclear] and bring them [unclear].
Nancy: Gone, for yeah, yeah.
Darryl: And… now who you met…
Frank: Yeah. And how can you heal that?
Darryl: Yeah. Now you manage yourself because you want to make the, want to make the call, want to make the call relationship between you and your son. And you don’t make that phone call. Come one, man. I mean, it’s just… It’s an every aspect of it. We got to get unstuck.
Frank: This moment can always be the moment.
Darryl: Frank, hoowey brother! Say it again! Say it again!
Frank: This omen can always be the moment. You’re listening to Frank Relationships and we’re talking with coach, consultant, trainer, facilitator and the president and principal consultant of Deep Forgiveness, Brother Darryl C. Green III. Brother Green, please tell us what you’re up to and how we can find you.
Darryl: Listen man, we’re all over. We’re coming to a town, city near you. Just reach out to us. Please visit our website at www.deepforgiveness.com. You can reach us directly on email and info@deepforgiveness.com, or you can call us directly at 443-739-3260. And listen, we’ve got some exciting things happening just with some work with ARP. We just had a powerful meeting this week with the president of Morgan State University in Baltimore. Stony Brook University, November 29 through December 3. We were slated to go… Again, Deep Forgiveness. Who would have thought it? got to be in… supposed got be in Havanna, Cuba. But Cuba could not accommodate us, the full international conference. So we’re going to be in Aruba. November 29 – December 3.
Frank: Doing what?
Darryl: It is a conference of color. Counselling and treating people with color. Stony Brook University leads the way out of New York and they do a conference on color every year. Last year was in Haiti, this year is going to be in…
Nancy: Aruba?
Darryl: In Aruba. And so, I’m just honored and blessed to be invited and talk about healing, reconciliation and forgiveness… And the power of healing. But we’re… Man, listen. We’re going to be everywhere. So we will come to Louisiana, if you need some healing. We’ll come to Mexico—wherever, just call us up and…
Frank: Make it happen.
Darryl: Make it happen. Look at the way I’m saying this. There’s a list of services.
Nancy: I was ready to say so. How does it work when you all show up? You do processes with people?
Darryl: Yeah, sometimes we’ll go in beforehand and me talk to the [unclear] to be and find out what’s happening. Well sometimes, we’ll show up and we won’t talk to anybody… And sometimes I show up with some of the schools that I’m going to be working. I would just watch and look and see. Sometimes there’s some events that may have happened… a death, a murder at that school. With the uprise in Baltimore. Even looking at the Baltimore City Police Department, with the DOJ report. There’s a lot of healing needs to happen. Not only in Baltimore but other cities… Charlotte… There’s other cities who can benefit from bringing us into help them along their journey.
So there’s a lot of stuff happening. Get on the counter, man. Let’s just call it—
Nancy: Has Baltimore brought you in? Has the Baltimore City Police Department brought you in?
Darryl: Well I had a conversation in Annapolis. No not yet…
Nancy: Okay.
Darryl: To answer that question. But I had a conversation with the commission, Kevin Davis… send some emails, we haven’t gotten there yet… But prayerfully, we will. Prayerfully we will. Again, this week powerful media in Morgan State University and Morgan’s going to be beginning to do some of the work with the new police cadets…
Nancy: Okay.
Darryl: …coming in to understand who we are.
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: And help them to look through a different set of lenses.
Nancy: Okay.
Darryl: And so… We’re just excited about all the possibilities. I’m excited for all the listeners to get this message of healing and reconciliation today and forgiveness. Hopefully, some of them will invite us in.
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: When I am… When I’m doing an interview, as we sit here, I got a pen in my hand, paper, you know I can take some notes to questions and comments that I want to come… things I want to come back to, I got to page full. I don’t even really know where to… It’s so much to talk about.
Nancy: It’s okay…
Frank: You know, the… Let me first tell you how I met this brother.
Nancy: Okay.
Frank: We were on a fatherhood panel—
Darryl: Yeah.
Frank: —a few months ago. And you know me, I’m crazy. You know, nobody…
Nancy: I’m glad the [unclear] are open… it’s finally been acknowledged eventually…
Darryl: The good crazy, Frank.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: He’s good crazy.
Frank: Nobody agrees with me. We sat on the panel together and… They went down the line of panellists and I was the last person. And he spoke of his story and it was… moving as it was just now.
Nancy: [unclear], yeah…
Frank: And then I said my piece and it was like, we connected, right there.
Darryl: Right away. Right away. Right away.
Frank: Like I said, o have somebody who understood what I was talking about.
Darryl: Yeah.
Frank: I mean, right there.
Nancy: What did you say?
Frank: I was saying that it was important to remove some of the heat off of the way we look at “deadbeat dads”—
Darryl: Right.
Frank: And men who don’t take care of their children. Let’s remove some of the heat from that and look at the layers to the conversation. The many levels to what could be happening. And what comes to mind even as I’m talking about it right now is something I not jotted down which is one of my favorite quotes, which is “We could like everyone if we know their story.” It’s so… When I read that a year or so ago, it was so profound because people that we don’t know are those that we are hardest on. But when we know people and we know what they’re really dealing with, all of a sudden, there’s a part of our hearts open up.
Nancy: It becomes real for us.
Frank: Exactly.
Darryl: It’s connection, yeah.
Frank: Yeah, yeah. And so… All of that comes to mind and I [unclear] to you Brother Green, just how we met and then we ended up staying in touch, you know… and here we are.
Darryl: Yeah, as a matter of fact, when the event was over, I got a call. It was Frank, he said, “Hey listen”—this is how starting a connection, “Hey listen, I’m having a cookout at the house.”
Nancy: Oh lord.
Darryl: “I got all this stuff on the grill. Don’t go back to Baltimore, man…”
Nancy: Wow.
Darryl: “…and you’re going to pass pass my house on the way. I had another engagement but come on by.” And that spirit was just a beautiful spirit, man… the connection. And then to know that we have an even deeper connection with our fraternity. But again, when I say slowing the bus down…
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: …and if we new folks’ story, we’re more alike than we’re different.
Nancy: Sure.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: And it gives us an opportunity to be able to look through a different set of lenses. It gives us opportunity man to be able to see folks for who they are… the madness is happening here. When they pulled us over, they don’t know that we’re husbands, we’re fathers—
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: —we’re somebody’s son…
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: They don’t know that we have a doctorate degree or master’s degree that we’re learning men.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: They look at us in some cases, we’re just bad dudes.
Nancy: Or that you could be a good friend of someone they know.
Darryl: Come on.
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: And communication… Not just communication, Jeff… but effective communication, right? Slowing the bus down and effective communication such… it could take you on this beautiful journey, man. And I think that that’s what happened for us, Frank on that panel that day.
Frank: Indeed.
Darryl: It just… we slowed the bus down, we got an opportunity to see and respect each other’s view points.
Frank: Absolutely.
Darryl: Because at the end of the day, we just wanted men to… to bring men out of the cold.
Nancy: Sure.
Darryl: And bring them back at the table. And so, let them have a seat at the table. Sometimes, we’re so hard—
Frank: Indeed.
Darryl: —and we don’t let them in the table.
Frank: Right.
Darryl: So I’m working with some folks right now and just trying to… Listen man, the seed is open for you to sit at the table.
Frank: And I want you there… because you’ve got something to offer.
Darryl: Come on. I have a close friend, man, that him and his son, I see his son about every Sunday when we go to church. I hug him, I tell him I love him… behind his dad. And so, I talked to his dad. I’m saying, “Hey man, listen. Your… Come to church.”
Frank: You matter.
Darryl: “And just see, just see him.” And so you know, hopefully they worked that out, man.
Frank: Right.
Darryl: We’re just trying to be the conduit, man to move folks from being in bondage to being free. I think that’s our job.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: And I f not us, then who? Who’s going to do it?
Frank: Right, right.
Darryl: I mean, Nancy, who’s going to do it? And so that’s why I think this show is so powerful to help folks through relationships… the different relationships and the different nuisances. And some of us have a little bit more experience or have gone through some stuff that we can be a beacon of light for others who are struggling with that… maybe not that same thing…
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: But maybe struggling. Nancy, I know that there’s some young sisters around you who look at you as a model to say, “Let me go talk to sister Nancy because I know, she’s probably experienced this in a relationship and how did you handle it.” again, let them see through your set of lenses.
Nancy: Right.
Darryl: Frank, there’s brothers around you who’s looking at you being a good husband and a good father. You’re letting them see through a different set of lenses. And so that’s the powerful piece of us. And so, I just say to folks, man, let our little light shine. This little light of mine…
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: I mean, just let it shine.
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: And somebody’s going to see that light man and be able to move towards the light instead of staying in the dark.
Nancy: Do we get the love we earn? I remember years ago having a… not the same conversation but some kind of way, when you say take the heat off of deadbeat dads or any situation, take the heat off of it. And I remember saying, “We have to get past this place where we only get love if we paid for it” something like that. So it’s like the guy… And you, there’s plenty of guy that could run in the door right now and say, “Nancy, I’m paying my child support every month faithfully and no one is giving me love.” You know? So transcending this notion that we are only entitled to the love that we paid for, like literally. And that ties into this conversation around agape because most of what makes a dad a deadbeat in the minds of most people is what he’s not providing financially. And you have this connection with this young man’s father and you’re saying, “Come to church, spend some time with him,” and guaranteed, I think what a lot of us miss is that when there’s some kind of… when there’s an area of forgiveness there between whomever, what we forget is that person oftentimes nailed themselves to the cross. And so, I’m thinking, a man that can’t spend a moment with his son is beating himself up.
Darryl: Yeah, yeah.
Frank: He’s got some conversations going on—
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: —with himself.
Nancy: “I don’t deserve it. Why should he love me? I’ve never done anything for him?” But you’re his father.
Frank: And who knows what his relationship with his father [unclear]?
Nancy: Right, right.
Darryl: Come on, Frank. Come on.
Nancy: But here’s the thing… that’s the ship you rode in on.
Darryl: Yeah.
Nancy: If you believe that… you know, however you believe you get here, your parents were your gateway to get here if they never do anything for you. And I know that whole… honor thy mother and thy father, and I heard this newscast about this kid. I mean, like little kid they say, they think he killed his father.
Darryl: [unclear]. Yes.
Nancy: And I didn’t hear it all. I just heard it inpassing in the kitchen [unclear].
Darryl: 40 year old yesterday.
Nancy: Yeah. And I’m like wow what in the heck did his father do that he would kill him? I don’t know.
Darryl: Pain and hurt, man.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: And watch this… Hurt people hurt people.
Frank/Nancy: There you go.
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: Hurt people hurt people.
Frank: And if you understand that, you get that there’s no limit to where that hurt began. If hurt people hurt people, then—
Nancy: You talk in generations.
Frank: —whoever’s hurt was hurt by somebody who was hurt who—
Nancy: Hurt by somebody. There you go.
Frank: I mean, when do we just…
Nancy: Pump the brakes.
Frank: Exactly. Take the heat off and say, “Alright, let’s pray.”
Darryl: Slow the bus down.
Frank: Let’s… yeah. Let’s just take a moment.
Darryl: Yeah.
Frank: Let’s understand that this isn’t the person’s fault necessarily that you’re pointing at.
Nancy: Right.
Frank: Because we can’t even see the root.
Nancy: Right, right.
Darryl: So and that’s why I say man, when I… working with… I did fatherhood work for about 13 ½ years, speaking across the country of fatherhood, ran the largest fatherhood conference in the state of Maryland for about 8 years and doing mentoring programs. When working with these young guys, I say “What’s relationship between you and your father?” “I can’t stand that my ba ba ba ba…” right? And then I would say to them, “So now, why are you doing the exact same thing that your dad did to you to your children if it hurts you so bad?” and a light will come on like boom. They didn’t see the connection and I’m saying “Man, don’t do it to your child what your dad did to you.” And again, we don’t know the relationship—I mean, just how fathers thing go back.
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: Great, great grandfather… When I look at my own family, there are a lot of women in our family whose father was not there for them. I [unclear] my mother who still has that father starvation, the father hunger and her father has gone on but just like a powerful sister out of DC, [unclear] whatever [unclear].
Frank: Yeah.
Darryl: Whatever happened to daddy’s little girl? And was I not good enough? We started to internalize those things, man, but just how far back this thing go back in… and then we just stopped the bus, recognize that and then pick up our pieces and move on towards healing and doing the right thing when it comes to our children, right?
The first relationship for me and even in your household, your house, the first relationship my girls are going to have with a man is going to be me.
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: Absolutely.
Darryl: And I screwed that up, I’m not going to say that they’re not going to be screwed up in the visuals… but their decision making process may be skewed in the man that they choose.
Frank: and you know they can benefit from you nailing it.
Darryl: Come on. Come on.
Frank: If you get it right, you know they can benefit. So…
Nancy: You don’t have to worry about it.
Darryl: Yeah. My oldest daughter said and the youngest, “Daddy, how can I find a husband like you?” I said, “Don’t worry about it. I’ma help you.”
Nancy: Oh my goodness.
Darryl: “I will help you. Your mama will help you too.”
Nancy: Oh my goodness…
Frank: Let’s kind of… as we wrap up the… It’s always important to point to how this can benefit relationships. And I want to throw out there, looking at forgiveness and relationships really if it’s—there is virtually nothing your partner can do that you can’t get over.
Darryl: Come on.
Frank: Period.
Darryl: Come on. If you’re all in.
Frank: If you’re all in. If you are all in. if that partner is the partner for you, if you’re clear about that, then get all in.
Nancy: There is no… what’s that song? I haven’t heard it yet… Lemonade?
Frank: You have a… Oh, oh…
Nancy: I haven’t heard it yet but…
Frank: I haven’t either. I haven’t either.
Nancy: But just based on the clips I’ve seen… I’m just like oh my goodness. So okay, okay. No need for the lemonade CD.
Frank: Hey I don’t know the [unclear] so…
Nancy: Right, right, right…
Darryl: Listen, let me just say man… in every relationship man… there’s got to be some healing. There’s got to be some reconciliation. There’s got to be some forgiveness. If you really wanted to work, if you really want to move forward. If you want to move towards healing, get that poison out of you, get unstuck. And so, I’m just honored, man that you guys invited me to your house today, man, to sit at your table. Thank you for allowing us, to [unclear] space at the table to talk about my work and what we’re trying to do across the country. Not only across the country, Frank and Nancy, but across the world. Because this world needs healing, man.
Nancy: Yes, yes.
Darryl: We need healing. So I thank you, man. And to the listening audience, thank you and you guys reach me at www.deepforgiveness.com or either info@deepforgiveness.com. That’s the email and the phone number at 443-739-3260. I’m Darryl Green and I appreciate you guys just being a part of this beautiful conversation, for allowing me be a part of this beautiful conversation today.
Nancy: Yeah.
Frank: Thank you, my brother. One thing that we didn’t discuss and we mentioned but we didn’t define is agape love.
Darryl: Yeah. For me man, it is…
Frank: And I don’t even know if I pronounced it right.
Nancy: Yeah, agape.
Frank: I’ve heard a few pronounces…
Darryl: Yeah man, it’s just for me… I’m just trying to be all in with the love. I’m just trying to be all in and I’m trying to just embrace you with the full armor with everything that I have… unconditional love, all of that and folks would say “Well you’re working with the kid who took your brother’s life, man. That is agape love.” And so, I’m just trying to help others to get there. I’m not only there yet but I can share my little piece of the journey that I’ve had.
Nancy: Sure, sure. Excellent. I think the other thing I appreciate about agape and much of this conversation you’ve mentioned that so much of your journey has been undergirded by your faith…
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: And I think in this day and age, it’s important to acknowledge that not everybody is on a faith journey.
Darryl: No.
Nancy: They may be on their own version of a spiritual journey but it doesn’t include faith as we typically understand it. I just want to say that doesn’t absolve them of going through whatever they need to go through to get to a place of healing.
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: And agape transcends religious affiliations.
Darryl: Yes, yes.
Nancy: And that’s what I like about the term. It doesn’t mean I’m a Christian so…
Darryl: That’s right.
Nancy: I’m a Muslim so… I got to do this because the Quran or the Bible says as a human being…
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: You have certain obligations. To be moral does not necessarily mean and in no way means that you are religious or vice versa.
Darryl: That’s right.
Nancy: You can be religious and not moral, believe it or not.
Darryl: Come on. Come on.
Nancy: And so I’m happy that you used that term to let anybody listening or look and then say “Well how is this conversation really relevant for me if I don’t do come to Jesus meetings?”
Darryl: [unclear].
Nancy: Yeah.
Darryl: Yeah [unclear].
Nancy: You’re human, things happen and even if you consider yourself to be the source—
Darryl: Yes.
Nancy: —of your life, you are no less responsible. As a matter of fact, you are MORE responsible for creating a certain quality of experience then you might be if you were laying on the everlasting on. You know what I’m saying?
Darryl; Right, right, right….
Nancy: You really need to pull it up.
Darryl: Come on. Yes.
Nancy: So thank you for using that term. That really works for me.
Darryl: Thank you, Nancy.
Frank: You’ve been listening to Frank Relationships and we’ve been talking with coach, consultant, trainer, facilitator and the president and principal consultant of Deep Forgiveness, Brother Darryl C. Green III.
Along today’s journey, we’ve discussed having hard conversations, adjusting our lenses and of course, forgiveness. Thank you to my co-host, Nancy; thank to Jeff Newman, my engineer; and thank you to my guest, Brother Darryl C. Green III. You have been great.
Darryl: Thank you sir.
Frank: I hope you’ve had as much fun as I’ve had hanging out with today’s ensemble.
As always, it’s my wish for you to walk away from this conversation with a heaping helping of useful information that I hope you create a relation that’s as loving and accepting as possible.
Let us know what you think of today’s show at facebook.com/relationshipflove, on Twitter at @mrfranklove or at franklove.com. If you’re listening via Blog Talk Radio, make sure you like us there and if via iTunes, make sure you subscribe so that you can receive each week’s show.
This is Frank love.
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