PodcastRaising Children with Difficult Behaviors w/ Julie Ribaudo, LMSW, ACSW

February 15, 2016by Frank Love0


Podcast Episode:
Are you challenged by the behaviors of certain children? We’ll learn how an attachment-based approach can help you and said child … on this edition of Frank Relationships.



Guests: Julie Ribaudo, LMSW, ACSW
Date: February 15, 2016

Frank: Are you challenged by the behaviors of certain children? We’ll learn how an attachment-based approach can help you and said child … on this edition of Frank Relationships.

Yes. As always, those are my babies. Thanks for getting daddy’s daughter today.

Welcome to Frank Relationships where we provide a candid, fresh and frank look in the relationships with goals of acceptance, respect and flexibility. I’m Frank Love and you can find me, my blog and my various social media incarnations at franklove.com.

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Frank: Greetings to my super duper co-host, Nancy Goldring.

Nancy: Hi there Frank, how are you?

Frank: I’m great, how you doing?

Nancy: I’m great. Thank you.

Frank: Let’s remind the folks that you are a—

Nancy: Consummate…

Frank: —consummate generalist.

Nancy: Yes, interested in just about everything.

Frank: She’s so interested in everything after EVERY show. She keeps every guest in the phone, asking them about whatever they were talking about because she just got more questions. Did you know that i know that?

Nancy: I did not.

Frank: Yeah, I checked that out.

Nancy: Oh okay. I didn’t know you were paying attention.

Frank: What’s new in the world of relationships today? You got anything?

Nancy: Well all hey… The real deal this week is Valentine’s Day.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: And all the attending mayhem that comes with that holiday—if we can call it that…

Frank: And what do you adding to the mix?

Nancy: Uhm you know… what am I adding to the mix? I heard about a…. to me, unconventional celebration of a black love day?

Frank: Okay. Black love day.

Nancy: That’s being celebrated here in the D.C. area… dealing with healing, healing relationships.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: And stuff of that nature.

Frank: Is that synonymous with Valentine’s Day for black people?

Nancy: Oh no, well… only for black people… Well, I guess… Well you know what? That’s a good question. I don’t think so.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: I think it’s aimed at taking a much more conscious perspective on love in general. Not just romantic love but familial level. So… so there’s that… There’s just the… Oh, my goodness Frank… Yesterday. Was it yesterday? What’s today? Thursday. No. So… Tuesday, I hear some co-workers of mine talking. And so one lady jumps up and says, “Well guys, this is it. it’s the Tuesday before Valentine’s Day. This is your last opportunity to break up with the girl you’re seeing before Valentine’s Day.”

Frank: So what? Come Wednesday and it’s—?

Nancy: Well it’s…

Frank: It’s a [unclear]?

Nancy: Well, evidently… Well let’s put it this way… It’s too close to Valentine’s Day for it now to be exactly what it is which would be the guy getting out before he has to produce on Valentine’s Day. I never even heard of such a thing.

Frank: I never heard of it, never thought about it…

Nancy: Yeah… Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Frank: But I’m not a—I’m not a big Valentine’s Day person anyway. But you know, ironically, I brought my wife two dozen roses two nights ago.

Nancy: Nice. Isn’t that sweet?

Frank: Got nothing to do on Valentine’s Day.

Nancy: Nothing to do with Valentine’s Day.

Frank: Other than I saw them because—

Nancy: They’re out there.

Frank: —they’re out there and bought them.

Nancy: Yeah. Right.

Frank: And maybe that’s the connection into Valentine’s Day. So I guess go Valentine’s Day even when it’s five days ahead or something like that.

Nancy: Well, I mean, in the interest of a man who wrote a book on ending relationships…

Frank: That would be me.

Nancy: That would be you.

Frank: How to gracefully exit a relationship?

Nancy: Exactly. I thought it was—I don’t know that it’s graceful but it’s out there.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: It’s one of the phenomenon that’s out there.

Frank: I… Have you ever heard of LeAnn Rimes?

Nancy: Only briefly. Celebrity?

Frank: Yeah, she’s a country singer.

Nancy: Yea?

Frank: And based on this article I was reading, she’s a C-list country singer so I don’t know one way or another how good she is or—

Nancy: Right, yeah.

Frank: —nothing like that. I don’t know. While I appreciate country music and I even own some, —

Nancy: Sure.

Frank: I don’t listen to it regularly.

Nancy: Okay, okay.

Frank: It’s not in my circle of… whatever.

Nancy: Right.

Frank: She married a guy by the name of Eddie—I think it’s Cibrian? And they were both—when they met and started—I guess a relationship, they were both married.

Nancy: Got it.

Frank: So Leann was married to a male, a guy that—I don’t know his name. And Eddie was married to a woman by the name of Brandi Glanville, who he has two children with. This has been—I think it’s been like 7 years since they split.

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: And Eddie and Brandi have two sons together but they are constantly [unclear] like all three of them, including LeAnn Rimes. LeAnn Rimes and Brandi are constantly on Twitter going at each other. This is what I read in the article. I mean, Brandi wrote two memoirs dedicated to her failed marriage. She slashed Cibrian’s motorcycle tires—mind you, this is what I’m reading.

Nancy: Sure.

Frank: I don’t know this to have happened, and she was on the real housewives of Beverly Hills as—I guess she was playing up being the scorned ex.

Nancy: Airing the laundry.

Frank: Yeah, yeah.

Nancy: Okay, okay.

Frank: 7 years too long to be going at each other?

Nancy: To grieve? To grieve. To be going at each other, I think that’s a little strong.

Frank: And she’s… They—so she’s mad because they… The relationship ended because of another relationship or something like that.

Nancy: Well, right. She’s upset because—if I’m hearing you right, her husband left her for another woman.

Frank: Yes, I believe that’s correct.

Nancy: Okay, so… And you’re saying is 7 years too long to still be upset about something like that?

Frank: Oh you’re not helping…

Nancy: Well I’m trying to help you out. I want to say I think so. But I’ve not had that experience. So I feel… I want to say that… Okay, so let’s roll it back a little bit. The end of the relationship—

Frank: This sounds like the beginning of something good.

Nancy: The end of a relationship for any reason is painful enough, okay? And… That’s, atleast in my opinion mostly, a function of it being not just the death of the relationship itself is the death of a dream. Is the death of what we had hoped for, what we had believed, what we believe was possible with this particular human being.

Frank: And does that dream just perpetuals? I mean, what if you’ve been together 10 years and you’re still dreaming and it’s not happening, you’re not liking each other, you’re irritated… Is the end of that relationship still the death of a dream?

Nancy: If to the extent that you assigned the possibility to that one human being… Yes. So a lot of times, what I’ve learned years ago, the distinction between the person we love and the quality of relationship you want to have. So a woman in particular needs to ask herself—do I want the man? Or do I want the relationship? A particular man can interest you but not give you the quality of relationship that you’re looking for and yet you can get a quality of relationship from a man that on all other accounts, you don’t find yourself particularly drawn to in that magnetic television romance kind of thing.

Frank: Yeah, yeah…

Nancy: Okay? So I would only suspect that if after 7 years, I’m still giving my ex-husband grief over having left me. I may not even be irritated that the relationship ended but how it ended. It’s no different than when we spoke about estate planning and a question came up—Should you put how a person died in an obituary and I told you how a loved one of mine died when I found out that he died. What was of primary interest to me was how did he go? So even in your relationships is the death of something important to you. How it ends is just as important as any other part of it. So I got to now carry and maybe for a celebrity?

Frank: That’s a powerful comment.

Nancy: Yeah. So this one is a celebrity in her own right. Whatever list she’s on in terms of popularity and she may even be a sex symbol for all I know… And her husband leaves her for someone else. Well that just kills your buzz… your public buzz. But all that aside, do I think 7 years is too long? Absolutely. Most definitely.

Frank: There’s a [unclear].

Nancy: And it definitely doesn’t help the children.

Frank: Well yeah. That’s actually—

Nancy: No question.

Frank: That was the last line of the article. Just what you just said.

Nancy: Yeah, yeah.

Frank: There was a quote in there that said “We’ve been socially conditioned to believe that our greatest fear that our partner will cheat on us.” Do you think that’s about right? I think that’s about right. And if you can get over that, I think you can even be a better partner.

Nancy: If you can get over the idea that your partner will cheat on you?

Frank: Yup.

Nancy: Yeah…

Frank: a lot of what we do is to control each other—

Nancy: To keep that from happening.

Frank: To keep that from happening. If you get over that, you let that go, I suspect we are better partners when we do that.

Nancy: if we get over it?

Frank: If we get over that even as an idea that we’re worried about.

Nancy: Okay. So then I should expect it?

Frank: You can expect it, you can be disinterested in even worrying about it, you have… Folks, Nancy has actually moved away from the mic when I said…

Nancy: Well… Well I moved away from the mic, ladies and gentlemen, for a couple of reasons… And okay, so number one, a gazillion years ago, I read this book by a woman who used to be like the one, the go-to person, Dr. Joyce Brothers, right?

Frank: Okay, alright.

Nancy: Dr. Joyce Brothers wrote in this book, she was talking about affairs and she says “when a man has an affair, he’s hoping that his wife will find out because he wants to stop. There’s something going on in the relationship. He doesn’t want to have affairs. He wants to stop having the affairs but he can’t stop until she finds out but he can’t tell her,”—something to that effect.

So then she goes on to discuss it from the woman’s vantage point and she says “If you are woman enough to have an affair, then you had better be woman enough to deal with the guilt because if you tell your husband you have had an affair, believe me, you’re done. It is done.”

Frank: Really?

Nancy: So… Now that doesn’t mean that every man that discovers his wife has had an affair leaves his wife. But however, he doesn’t see his affair the way he sees your affair. Now, fast forward to yesterday. Yesterday I’m reading a story in a book—listening to a story in a book where as part of the story, short story, the point is made that this man runs around on his wife almost systematically. And yet in that time that they’ve been married, she’s had one affair. She told him. He spends the rest of the time that she’s discussed in the book referring to her as a “whore.”

Frank: Wow.

Nancy: So… And she had one affair. Many years prior, and he’s still having affair but in his mind… we’ll leave it at that…

Frank: Alright.

Nancy: So you guys just see that thing differently. So if you’re asking me as a woman to make peace with the fact that my mate, my lover, man, husband, whatever, may find himself in the arms of another woman and I should just kind of like… alright that’s kind of like… such as like. Are you also communicating to your male cohorts that their women could find themselves in the arms of other men and given hate, but we’re putting women on the frontline in the military now because they’re saying if you want equal rights, you got to have what? Equal responsibility. Ow! So okay…

Frank: That’s not the big deal!

Nancy: So.. It’s not… But what I’m saying to you is… What I’m saying to you is if you want me as a woman to embrace that is almost natural, lawful in the animal kingdom if you will, for a man to take another lover in any given point in time and have it not necessarily mean anything about how he feels about me, then please, please share the wealth.

Frank: Okay. Now the irony in it… You know, this show is not really just about me and you. We actually have a guest.

Nancy: Oh my god.

Frank: Yeah, so…

Nancy: What? Are you there? Who is this phantom?

Frank: You realize… I said “we”—

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: —have been socially conditioned.

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: I didn’t say “women”, I didn’t say “men.”

Nancy: You said everybody.

Frank: Yes.

Nancy: Everybody.

Frank: So..

Nancy: Well men and women that’s all that’s here and…

Frank: How does this deteriorate into—if you’re asking me as a woman.

Nancy: Well because I can only—

Frank: I’m talking to everybody.

Nancy: Well but you are talking to everyone, I agree. But I can only speak for me. I mean, I want to stand here and say that I am the voice of all women but I know better than that.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: Because there are going to be women out there that say “Oh no sister, back it up. That is not where I am on it,” or somebody might say, “Oh my god, what a provincial point of view she has. She’s not up-to-date, current with the way women are thinking now. there are younger women who may not have an issue with this at all.”

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: So, that’s…

Frank: Or older women.

Nancy: Or older women if they may have said “Hey, wake up. Smell the coffee. This is what it is.”

Frank: I believe if Maya Angelo was sitting there in the studio,—

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: —I believe based on what I’ve read about her, that she would agree about that social conditioning and…

Nancy: Oh I’m not disagreeing with that.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: I’m definitely not disagreeing that—

Frank: Well she’s certainly not younger than me.

Nancy: True. I know she’s not younger than you.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: But I do—we enter… we socialize to believe that our greatest fears that we’ll be cheated on and oftentimes that’s what creates the reality—the fear. That is going to happen.

Frank: But the reality that’s also created is the pain that comes because we’re so committed to that meaning, what it means to be “cheated on” that we got to play the whole thing out. If it happens, it meant this and we’re devastated in this way… Speaking of our guest…

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: I haven’t even introduced you yet. But I figured that—do you have an opinion about it—

Nancy: Would you like to weigh in?

Frank: Well, yeah…

Julie: I’m just enjoying listening to you and learning a lot actually.

Frank: Okay. Alright, alright. I can go with that. Alright, you got anything else, Nancy?

Nancy: I just want to hear what Professor Ruby has to say.

Frank: Wha—You’re not even supposed to say her name!

Nancy: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry…

Frank: I haven’t introduced her yet.

Nancy: It’s like a woman that let the cat out of the bag…

Frank: Okay! Today’s guest is a clinical associate professor at the University of Michigan, School of Social Work. Before joining the faculty in 2006, she had practiced for over 20 years with the focus on parent-infant relationships, assessment and treatment of abused and/or neglected infants, toddlers and young children… And she also worked in consultation with teachers and child care providers regarding young children with difficult behaviors.

So if you want to know what the attachment theory is, how our early experiences affect us today, and how is it that babies fall in love with us and we to them, then stay tuned as your Frank Relationships Team talks the Attachment Theory with the 2013 recipient of the Selma Fraiberg award for outstanding contributions to Michigan infants and their family… Ms. Julie Ribaudo.

Welcome to the show, Julie.

Julie: Thanks for having me. And thanks for such a entertaining [unclear] start to the conversation.

Frank; Aha. We tried.

Julie: Yes.

Nancy: Welcome.

Frank: What advice—now I got to tell you, this is my—my listeners know… They know what I’m about to ask you already because I ask everybody this. This is my first question.

Julie: Okay.

Frank: What advice can you give to a 25 year old couple that has a baby due in 2 months about child rearing?

Julie: Get ready for the best and the hardest ride of your life. Yeah… I think your opening segment really sort of starts to lay the groundwork for what baby’s made, right? Babies are intense. Babies and their parents need to fall in love intensely. So I think getting ready to sort of give yourself over to that process for a period of time and welcome it and embrace it, and not fall into… sort of the social norms, you have to get back on the horse right away. You shouldn’t let life change and… I would say that exactly the opposite is true that babies need our intense involvement for a period of time and—

Frank: What period of time would you say? Just…

Julie: Well the first period time is the first 3 months. It’s overwhelming, oftentimes exhausting, babies are unpredictable, they need a lot of attention to their just biological needs…

Frank: You know, ironically, the first 3 months weren’t that big of a deal for me.

Nancy: They may have been for your wife.

Frank: Yeah. Well I mean… I have 5 children… and I just… my wife is the one that gets up in the middle of the night, feed the baby…

Julie: Oh there you go…

Frank: She’s breastfeeding… I can’t really relate to that first 3 months situation. Am I wrong for that? Do you have children?

Julie: Do I have children?

Frank: Yes.

Julie: Yes I do.

Frank: Okay.

Julie: I have one.

Frank: Alright.

Julie: I hit my limits. So… hats off to you with 5.

Nancy: Exactly.

Frank: And you’re an expert in the field.

Julie: Well [unclear]… I knew what I was signing up for, didn’t i?

Frank: Yeah, got you.

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: And Nancy, for the record, just a—

Nancy: No children.

Frank: No children.

Nancy: No children. I stepped out of that conversation.

Frank: okay.

Nancy: In a direct sense.

Frank: Got you.

Nancy: I certainly have nieces and nephews and I adore my involvement with them. I’m really grateful to my sister and brother for having children.

Frank: How many are them?

Julie: And they are probably—

Nancy: Six.

Julie: Six. Okay. And they are probably so grateful for you.

Nancy: Oh wow.

Julie: We all need aunts.

Frank: You don’t know that… She could be a lousy aunt. What you talking about?

Julie: Oh okay… That’s from what I’ve heard so far.

Nancy: Well thank you. Thank you so much.

Frank: And where are you from using the term “ant”? It’s “aunt.”

Julie: Okay, okay, okay… Yes. Got it.

Nancy: All these complexities…

Frank: Yes. Well you know, that’s what we do.

Nancy: Yes, yes…

Julie: So it’s the mid-west right?

Frank: Yes.

Julie: When I went to school I Georgia, they made fun of my accent.

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: Forget them. Don’t let people beat up for you… Alright. So your advice is basically stay tuned for the first 3 months. It’s going to be tumultuous, going to be tough. Don’t think that you have to do things one way or the other—

Julie: No, no…

Frank: —being tuned to the child…

Julie: Right. And that’s it exactly. That learning to know your baby, not just any baby but your baby to help set the framework for what’s going to come next. So our baby needs something different. They have basic fundamental needs but how they express that, some babies like to be held a lot, some babies like a little more distance, some babies like motions, some babies like stillness, some babies like loads sort of vibrant engagements, some babies need quiet engagements… So the time and effort that it takes from the parent to really learn [unclear] being is. It’s intrinsic. It’s the falling in love [unclear]. If you think about what we as adults do in that falling in love period, there is a ton of emotional investment and engagement going into that falling in love period—it’s what binds us together.

Frank: Got it.

Julie: Yeah…

Frank: So, how many… You said you have one child—how old is your child?

Julie: I do. He is 21.

Nancy: Wow great.

Frank: So you’re well into the game. You’re not talking—

Julie: Oh yes.

Frank: —a 3 month old or 3 year old or something like that… Okay.

Julie: No, no. It’s [unclear]. But in just to speak to the [unclear] of it, there are so many moments in that first year that I just recall [unclear] because it’s a labor-intensive, enjoying intensive time.

Frank: Yeah.

Julie: It’s one… If one let’s someone [unclear] fall in love with their baby, and some people that’s hard for them to do. That’s hard for them to give themselves over. And it doesn’t last—that sort of giving them [unclear] doesn’t last forever but… the brain actually changes in that first 3 months. It’s the only time—

Frank: The brain in the adult? The parent?

Julie: The brain in the adult. Exactly. Yes. We are—the obsession part of our brain is more lit up during those first few months.

Nancy: You said the “obsessional”?

Julie: The obsessional. Right.

Nancy: Yeah, got it. Okay, okay.

Julie: Our brains look a little more OCD when we have a baby… precisely to enable us to keep that baby alive.

Frank: and how do we fall in love with our children and them us?

Julie: Yeah… It’s such an individual process, right? So the baby smiles for the first time and parents light up and then the baby sees, the parent light up and the baby’s brain now lights up in a different kind of way. So it’s interactive exchanges of gaze and touch and… I don’t know, Frank and Nancy with your nieces and nephews, you know like when a baby just cheerily is excited to see you?

Nancy: Yes.

Julie: Like their whole body’s shimmy. Right?

Nancy: Yes, yes.

Julie: That makes us feel good. And so, that highlights three words [unclear] into our brain and then when we feel good and respond to the baby, and we light up in the face of them, then their brains are lighting up. So it’s a brain-to-brain sort of communication because you’re doing all of these without words.

Frank: Yeah, reciprocal.

Julie: Yes, it’s very reciprocal. It’s very attuned. We have what’s called neurons in our brains where we sort of share affective states. So we—our brains pick up when somebody else is feeling something. Some people are better at that than others but babies are primed and wired to tune in to us. And so they pick up our states and they fall in love with use as we are falling in love with them. They see themselves, they learn to see themselves as we see them through that falling in love process.

Frank: How does the opposite work? Where the child is crying and we may respond to the child crying or we’re upset and the child picks up on that, how does—? Throw that into the soup with what you’re saying.

Julie: Yeah, well absolutely. And I’m not saying it’s always roses and by the way, I’m going to let my husband know that you bought your wife 2 dozen roses. I going to plant that, feed in his brain, not for Valentine’s Day but… Okay. Now I lost my train on Valentine’s Day.

Frank: That’s okay. That’s a good interview.

Julie: Yeah…

Frank: Go on and lose your train of thought. Get into the conversation, enjoy. Enjoy the environment. Kickback, relax…

Nancy: Well let me just say, Professor Ruby, it’s interesting that you—

Frank: It’s Ribaudo.

Nancy: —went to that—

Frank: Professor Ribaudo.

Nancy: It’s not Rubio? Oh I’m sorry. I apologize.

Julie: That [unclear] all the time.

Nancy: Ribaudo.

Frank: We went through this…

Nancy: Tomeyto, tomato, Ribaudo… Yes… Okay, okay…

Julie: Ants or aunts… Yes…

Nancy: This is a linguistics show. Okay. So one of the interesting things about you moving even briefly to the flowers is I’m listening to the way that you are discussing how we fall I love with babies and how babies fall in love with us… and it’s how we fall in love with each other.

Frank: Yeah. She said that. That’s kind of like what she eluded to…

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: That is… It’s interesting, we’re kind of working our way back to our infancy when we’re connecting in romance.

Julie: Yes, yes, yes. In our infancies—

Frank: Did I say something interesting? That was deep. Was that deep? That was deep!

Julie: It is profound, yes… [unclear] of humanity…

Frank: Alright. So I got our first deepness of the day.

Nancy: Very good.

Frank: Okay.

Julie: Yup, yup… Just what I was saying, is that it isn’t like that every single moment. Right? It’s not all flowers and roses—

Frank: On either side.

Julie: On either side.

Frank: The infant or the adult romance.

Julie: No, no… There are chance that parents are absolutely aggravated and annoyed, and sometimes rageful towards their babies and yet, we keep them alive. We protect them to mot impulses. Right? Yeah…

Nancy: It also speaks—

Julie: Go ahead.

Nancy: It also speaks—

Julie: Babies get those same feelings.

Nancy: Okay.

Julie: when they begin to fall apart and when we can’t help them hold together, right? They feel those same feelings too and I think what binds us in relationships and what helps children is to know that their strong feelings cant overpower us, that we can tolerate and we can help them get back to a settled place.

Frank: And that is the same in adult relationships. In fact, before—there’s a piece where we want to know we can come home.

Julie: Yes.

Frank: And I’ve got [unclear]. Shane’s [unclear].

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: I’ve never even talked about this on the show.

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: I’ve got shirts. I’ve got Frank Love shirt and on the back it says “I want to be accepted,” one of them. The other says “We are not obligated to show our truth with anyone except ourselves—“

Nancy: Right.

Frank: But the one is relative right now is… the I’d like to be accepted. And I believe every last one of us in relationships want to be able to go and come and be accepted and not have to worry about whether my actions while I was away are approved by my partner, but we actually just want to go and come and be accepted. Whatever I did, whatever I do. Do you got—now that is related to what we’re talking about in my eyes but maybe it’s not to you guys. Please, weigh in.

Julie: Nancy, I interrupted you before so I’m going to… If that links to what you were… going to say…

Nancy: Well the point I was going to make a few minutes ago is that we often think and that we have to say or do something for our feelings to be known. And so there’s this phenomenon of I could hear a parent saying “Well I never said a cross word to my child” or “I never hit them” and yet what I’m hearing from you, in terms of that sort of mind-to-mind, brain-to-brain communication that you don’t have to say or do anything for another person to feel your displeasure or your disapproval.

Julie: Yes, yes…

Nancy: So that was that and the acceptance that you’re speaking of, Frank…

Frank: I think it’s incredible if you can do it r even if you hold it in your heart as being something—

Nancy: That’s possible…

Frank: —that’s possible.

Nancy: That’s possible, yeah.

Frank: Julie?

Julie: There’s a—absolutely. I think at a fundamental, fundamental human level that we each need to feel known, understood and accepted.

Frank: I’ve got it. I’m keeping that and I will—

Julie: It’s fundamental.

Frank: I’m going to say Julie said it even though I said it too. I’ma say you said it.

Nancy: Give it some credibility.

Julie: I just elaborated it. it was your first thought.

Frank: What’s the Attachment Theory?

Julie: So that’s it. I mean, in a nutshell, it drove down to that in some respect. That babies are born wired to connect with us with their parents and with other care givers [unclear] not just parents but the primary care givers. They come wired to connect. So they come wired to cue us, right? They smile, they cry, they cling, they suckle. Those are their communication systems and we are wired to take care of that. So babies need proximity in order to stay safe [unclear] and physically. If they haven’t been in proximity with their care givers, back in days of old predators would’ve gotten them. So [unclear] the species, taking our babies close and keep them alive so that we survive. So that at a fundamental level, at [unclear] level that’s the animal kingdom in some respect.

But beyond that thing, we—you don’t need to teach a mom how to let down when the baby cries so her mouth moves in, right? That happens automatically. Then fathers, there’s some research a number of years ago—I haven’t followed it—but fathers, the fathers are in close proximity, emotional proximity with their partners as the pregnancy proceeds.

Frank: We give note too…

Julie: No… But something similar. About 3 weeks before a full term birth. The men’s testosterone levels are going down to sort of that aggressive, he-man I kind of say, hormones start to go down, their estrogen levels start to go up. So the care giving, their cortisol levels start to go up, meaning they’re starting to take action because they have to protect and their occipital nerves. So the nerve that indicated in falling love, right? Seeing somebody and falling in love… That’s how starting to light up in a different kind of way too. So physiologically, even fathers are primed to begin to take care of the baby and keep them alive. So…

Frank: Might that have to… Some thing to do with the fact that the mom is as big as a house and we know we’re not going to be having sex anytime soon so we just put the utensils away?

Nancy: We turn on the nurturing light…

Julie: It probably taught you well, right? Might not have anything to do with the baby. Right?

Frank: Yeah, let me go over here and nurture something. I aint got nothing else to do.

Nancy: Put your energy on the baby because there’s nothing on you, right? Oh my goodness…

Julie: Well there you go…

Frank: Are you going to take this and do some research?

Julie: Yes, I will actually. Thank you for that, yes, yes…

Frank: We’re talking with social worker extraordinaire, Julie Ribaudo. She’s a clinical associate professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work with well over 20 years of experience. She’s also a strong proponent of the Attachment Theory of interacting with children, particularly those with difficult behaviors. Ms. Ribaudo, please tell our listeners how they can find you and maybe even what you’re up to.

Julie: Okay… Well I’m at the University of Michigan. So my email is jribaudo@umich.edu but I’m not in practice anymore. So I’m not in clinical practice as much. I work on a research team and I teach but I’m not seeing clients as much anymore. If you [unclear] a supervision of people who are working with family.

Frank: Got you. So consulting with the teachers and things like that?

Julie: Yup, yup. All the professionals. Trying to [unclear] broaden the net a little bit. If the adults in children’s worlds understand them better, we usually do better if we [unclear]… So that goes back to what you were talking about in terms of Attachment Theory. So we’re primed and ready to connect. We need to know that we can turn to somebody who’s sort of stronger and kinder and wise when we’re stressed. So babies learn that in day-to-day interactions, that if they’re distressed that they have somebody who comforts them and when they’re not distressed, somebody sort of delights in their exploration. They cheer the man as they roll over, right? Sort of giggle in response to the baby’s babbling and we talk to babies. In some respects, that shapes their brains and that shapes our brains in terms of that engagement.

So all of that is happening in the first year of life and those interactions begin to tell the baby “I’m worthy,” “I’m lovable”… Those interactions sort of say to the child “This is who I am in relationships, this is who big people are in relationships and this is how relationships go.” It forms sort of an internal working model or mask of how relationships go. That model—

Frank: That’s powerful.

Julie: Yeah, that model gets elaborated over the next 3 years and then it’s primarily unconscious, right? We don’t remember what we were like as infants. We don’t remember [unclear] our earliest experiences but we hold them procedurely. So when people say people know that parenting comes naturally, parenting comes naturally the way that it was done with you.

Frank: That’s interesting.

Julie: Now—

Nancy: That’s the only parenting you really know.

Julie: That’s right. Exactly. That’s what you know. Now that doesn’t mean it can’t be shifted if you had difficult experiences in early childhood. That’s speaking specifically about early childhood, right? We can all remember our adolescence oftentimes, not everybody…

Nancy: Right.

Julie: But we can remember our adolescence and say “I like to [unclear] where my parents did this.” “I didn’t like when my mom did that.” I’m not going to do that as a parent. I’ll do this as a parent, right? We will remember that.

Nancy: Sure.

Julie: But in infancy, we don’t have those transient recollection.

Frank: What—

Julie: So oftentimes—go ahead.

Frank: What about the interaction with younger siblings? Did you see between your younger siblings and your parents. So my youngest sister is 14 years younger than me. The next is 10 and the next is 2. So I really was a part of the raising of the 10-year younger than me and the 14-year younger than me—I mean, I used to pick them up from school.

Julie: Yup.

Frank: Mind you, so were my parents. My dad and my mom, and all of that good stuff… but how do you bring that in? Is that even brought into your consciousness subconsciously?

Julie: Oh. I think so. Any experiences of somebody who is sort of reliable and emotionally responsive gets encoded. So you were one of the it people, most likely. My sisters—I’m the oldest of 5 within 6 years. And I was—

Frank: Wow. 6 years? 5 children? Woah.

Julie: Yeah, 5 children in 6 years. Yup, yup. Explained a lot, that’s my husband… But my youngest sisters sort of remembered me as being the emotional care taker—one of the emotional care givers, right? Like I was the one that soothe them at night when they were scared and singing them to sleep. You know my mom did that as well but during the middle of the night, we were sharing bedrooms. They remember me being one of their emotional care givers.

Frank: Yeah.

Julie: So I think we connect most with people—no I don’t want to do that… We recall and can draw upon those that we made us feel safe and comforted.

Nancy: Yeah.

Julie: And when people haven’t had people in their lives who make them feel safe and comforted, then that becomes a therapeutic work, is to help them develop new models, right?

Nancy: That was a question I had.

Frank: What’s your question?

Nancy: I had a question about the Attachment Theory and how sociopath or psychopaths or any variation on that thing get created—

Frank: Any people on paths?

Nancy: Any people on pa—right, especially the not too good paths… These things are created by sort of breaks in the attachment theory. Something gone wrong…

Julie: In the Attachment, absolutely.

Nancy: …in the attachment process. Yeah.

Julie: So we can… So here’s where it gets a little scary for parents, right? And yet hopeful. Some of the researchers will—you can do an interview with the parent before the parent even has their child while the parent’s pregnant.

Frank: And learn what?

Julie: I’m sorry?

Frank: And learn what?

Julie: Okay. So in learn, how they think about relationship and the way that they talk and think about relationships predict for about 80% rate of accuracy what style of attachment will show at 12 months of age.

Frank: And it doesn’t even depend on the temperament of the child? Because children are so different. They really come here with… They got some predetermined stuff going on.

Julie: Oh absolutely, absolutely. So then the issue is, can the parent be flexible enough to respond to each child and do they have the resources to do that, right? So a parent that might have been good enough with an easy baby gets taxed with a really fussy baby. And now you add in having to go back to work at 6 weeks because of work first and not having enough to support and that poor parent just can’t [unclear] to the resources maybe where they might have ought been able to muster the resources with an easier baby.

So yeah, the baby brings something to the equation absolutely. But it’s the amount of resources to support psychological resources that a parent has that really determines it. The baby’s temperament does not determine attachment outcomes. It encodes a risk factor.

Frank: Okay.

Julie: But it doesn’t, it isn’t the determining factor.

Frank: Interesting delineation. Very nice.

Julie: Yeah, yeah.

Frank: Why do you—

Julie: So and then—oh go ahead, I’m sorry.

Frank: No go, go.

Julie: Well so then there’s 4 different sort of styles of attachment and I wont go into all of that but there’s one particular style of attachment where the parent is at one and the same time—and again, we’re talking about the first 12-18 months of life, right? Where the parent is both the source of safety because that’s what a parent is, but also the source of fear… or where the parent gets so incomprehensible like parents who dissociate or parents who are drinking heavily and babies can’t predict their responses…

Frank: You know we talked about disciplining and spanking a few weeks ago.

Julie: Yeah.

Frank: I mean, there is a tie in between this conversation and that one. So for our listeners, if you want to know about spanking, you can pull up the show from a couple of weeks ago. But please go on.

Julie: Yeah. So the distinction that I would make is that… For people who believe in spanking, I think I listened to that show and what I would say is that a two-year old doesn’t know how to make meaning out of their parent hitting them, right? A 5-year old has some [unclear] capacities to make sense out of it. but about 30% of parents in the US endorse hitting babies under the age of 1.

So how does a baby make sense out of somebody creating pain for them? It’s sort of incomprehensible for the baby. So when the parent is both one on the same time, the source of safety and comfort but also the source of fear or incomprehensibility, that’s deeply disregulating to a baby. Those are the babies that end up with a higher risk of conduct disorders in adulthood or self-harming behaviors in adulthood.

Nancy: Okay.

Julie: Yeah. So there’s… And there is a genetic, a bit of a genetic tie in there. the newer range of research looking at kids who have a genetic coding for what’s called a callous unemotional trait and these are kiddos that seem to struggle a little bit more to have empathy for other’s typical consequences don’t seem to take hold. So like for the typical person, right? If you know that 9 out of 10 times action A is going to cause this yucky consequence, right? You’re going to stop, right? These kiddos say “ooh, I have that 1 in 10 chance, so I’m going to keep going.”

Frank: Right.

Julie: So they—they’re harder to manage but what the research shows is that in sort of sensitive-responsive environments, those children do really well and in harsh, punitive environment, they’re fear the worse.
Frank: And so I actually have a daughter who fits that bill. She’s looking for that 1 in 10 chance that she’s going to get away with it—how do you suggest best—help me and my wife frame and environment that suits her.

Julie: Yeah. So I would—

Frank: That sounded like a good question.

Julie: Yes.

Nancy: Forgive him.

Frank: She’s 5.

Julie: She’s 5?

Frank: Yes, I didn’t want to put her on the spot. I got 3 daughters so I was going to leave it—

Nancy: You didn’t see her name.

Frank: That is who she is. So go on.

Julie: Yup, yup. [unclear], exactly that’s who she is. So how do you convey to her a sense of acceptance and say “Honey, this is your challenge,” right? Through life, you are going to learn the hard way and we are going to be here to back you up and give you some tools so you don’t have to always learn the hard way.

Nancy: So what are those tools?

Julie: What are those tools?

Nancy: She’s a gambler by nature.

Julie: She’s what?

Nancy: A gambler.

Julie: She’s a gambler by nature? Yeah.

Nancy: I mean that’s what that sounds like.

Frank: That is—yeah… That’s the truth.

Nancy: That’s what it sounds like.

Julie: Yeah, yeah… So… So then I’m going to turn it back on you and say “What you already are doing is how is it working” and probably because you know this is who she is as a person, you’re probably already developing some strategies that are helping her, right? Or else she wouldn’t… She might not have survived this one…

Nancy: She survived this long because she’s in love with her.

Julie: Exactly. Exactly.

Nancy: He’s asking the question because he’s—

Frank: She might be managing us better than we’re managing her.

Nancy: Right.

Julie: Yes. Yeah.

Frank: She’s definitely got my wife’s number. Oh man, they go at it.

Julie: Yeah, yeah… Now well then—

Frank: To answer your question—

Julie: Okay go ahead.

Frank: We—one of the things I find to be effective with her is putting time, like I will—you can’t say “Put your shoes on.” You have to say “Put your shoes on. 10, 9, 8…” and you know, you got to put a time on it. Otherwise, she just heard you say something. That’s all, that she just heard you say something.

Nancy: She responds to deadlines.

Frank: Yeah. But the deadlines that get it done now, that works in terms of for the short term.

Julie: Sure.

Frank: So any help—is that alright? Am I doing okay?

Julie: Oh yeah! If it helps her and it makes you [unclear], her chance is going to be to learn that she can’t—that the world is not going to revolve around her, right? So in infancy, babies need sort of us to revolve around them but as time goes on, they learn that other people have other agendas and they have to find their way in the world in terms of balancing their agendas to other people’s agendas.

Nancy: Right.

Julie: So I think you’re helping her say “You know what? I love mom and dad. I don’t like it when they’re angry at me. They’re telling me what I need to do and that’s giving me clear expectation.” And then sometimes she’s going to do it and sometimes she’s not.

Frank: Yes.

Julie: And you get angry at her, you apologize then you guys talk about it and you say this is why, this is why I get angry, I get frustrated sometimes and how are we going to do this different next time?

Frank: here’s another example, when I go to pick her up from school each day, when I walk in, the first thing she’s going to do is roll her eyes that I’m even there to pick her up. My god.

Nancy: Wow.

Frank: I was playing.

Julie: You are not as much [unclear]—

Frank: What are you doing here?

Julie: Yes.

Frank: So it’s—

Julie: You are not as much fun.

Frank: yes. And I’m not. So I get there and then… So she rolls her eyes then she’s got to get her stuff together, she moseys along to get her coat on while she’s talking to her friends and telling them whatever she’s telling them… and it could just—the time can pass where do you even see me here waiting on you?

Nancy; WOW…

Julie: Yeah…

Frank: So instead, what I’ve started to do, when I walk into the classroom to pick her up, there’s generally—I’m generally one of the later parents so there’s about 2 or 3 other children playing with her. So I walk in, “AC?” Dang, I’m not supposed to say her name…

Nancy: I knew it, I knew it!

Julie: Oh sorry…

Nancy: Revealed her identity.

Frank: Well I walk in—“Hey, get your stuff on. I’m here.” And then I start my count, “10, 9…” and by the time I get to 1, she should have her coat in her hands and be—and have one hand on me. So she should have been to her cubby, got her bag, her coat and she should be touching me.

Nancy: What happens at 1?

Frank: She gets a mean look.

Nancy: Okay, okay.

Frank: Yeah.

Nancy: A disapproving glance.

Frank: Yeah.

Nancy: Okay, okay…

Julie: Yeah…

Frank: Okay, what’s the Ribaudo thoughts on that?

Julie: So I hear two things. Number one, that you feel hurt by her [unclear] at you and you might not want to say that but deep down, we all want to be greeted, right?

Frank: Yes.

Julie: So I think that’s… One thing that you could probably think about is what is she conveying in that moment? So when you said she—you’re the last of the parent… Does she—

Nancy: Have a problem with that?

Julie: Yes, how does she feel about that?

Frank: So there are two other children that she’s typically playing with. So she’s in her element. She’s good being left there. “Leave me alone, daddy. I’m playing.”

Julie: Okay. So has that shaped you sort of being a little bit late to pick her up because you know she likes to play?

Frank: Well [unclear] relative, there’s a 3:30-3:45 window and I get there around 3:40.

Julie: Okay.

Frank: So it’s—

Julie: Okay, so it’s—it’s right. You’re not like late-late?

Frank: Right.

Julie: She’s not the last one?

Frank: Right, yup.

Julie: One thing we talk about when we’re in our attachment phase intervention is how do we greet children upon separation, right? Like we’ve been separated all day, we haven’t seen each other all day. She sounds a little bit like she’s setting the tone to reunion. Like she rolls her eyes and that starts the ball rolling, right? Do you—

Frank: My wife is laughing right now at this… When she listens to this show, she will be able to relate. Okay, excuse me.

Julie: So what would happen if you sort of dug deep and greeted her like warmly and said something like “I’m glad to see you.” And “Yeah, I see you rolling your eyes and yeah it’s hard because you’re playing with your friends and you don’t want to go.” And just acknowledge that and say “And yes, we have to go.” Like can you shift the tone a little bit so that you become a little bit more of source of pleasure.

Frank: Okay, alright.

Nancy; Interesting. A source of pleasure.

Frank: She pulled my card.

Nancy: Indeed. Instead of the task master.

Frank: Yup, let’s go.

Julie: Yeah.

Nancy: The disciplinarian.

Frank: Yes.

Nancy: Here he comes… breaking up my fun.

Julie: Yup. Yeah…

Frank: Forget you.

Nancy: No, I’m just saying… You can reinvent yourself.

Julie: Well you [unclear] goes with your shirt, right?

Frank: Yeah.

Nancy: Ah, acceptance.

Frank: Yes.

Julie: Yeah.

Frank: Thank you.

Julie: I know this is the way that you are and I know that I have to up my game to make… She’s sort of saying “what do you got, daddy?”

Frank: You know that’s why we have coaches. So this acceptance thing is something I really believe in yet I’m being schooled about it. And… we really get the opportunity to give things back and forth to each other.

Nancy: Oh yeah.

Frank: That we see in one another.

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: So I talked about the acceptance piece and then here we are having this conversation and she’s telling me how what I’ve already said to myself and to the world as I wear this shirt is applicable to the situation that I put in out there. That’s great, that’s great.

Nancy: Yeah.

Frank: Coaches are important, friendships are important and reminding each other of what we really believe in at a level a little bit deeper than wherever we are at a given point in time is beautiful.

Julie: Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. My take-away I feel is that I think about the books that are out for young first time mothers, young mothers, young parents, first time parents where you’re being given advice on how to parent a child. I think about what you said earlier about parenting from the place we were parented from? And yet, we may have children that don’t respond to the parenting style that’s seemingly, SEEMINGLY worked for us.

Julie: Yes, yes. Exactly.

Nancy: And—

Julie: And so, yeah.

Frank: Okay, alright. I got another one. I’ve got a child who is perpetually willing to tell you about displeasure in a given situation if—

Nancy: She’s complaining?

Frank: Yes. He’s—there you go… So I only got two sons, so…

Nancy: Who is he going to be in for?

Frank: He’s willing to let you know he doesn’t like something often, very often.

Nancy: I think that’s fabulous.

Frank: And he is—he will shut down when he feels like it and in some ways just say “no, I dot want to do that” or complain to the point where you give up… Or you just—and that seems to be the point. To complain or to—

Nancy: Oh to wear you down…

Frank: —wear you down so where you don’t want this anymore—

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: —or don’t even expect him to be able to rise to that occasion or to rise to the occasion.

Nancy: Oh that’s not what I was thinking when you said that. I was just thinking of him openly expressing himself and—

Julie: Yup.

Nancy: —by expressing himself, staying in touch with… his integrity as a being by making how he feels known and therefore, and by extension, staying in relationship with you because all his cards are on the table. But if he’s manipulating you, that’s something else.

Frank: Well maybe… Maybe what you said is on point, I don’t know… What you got Julie?

Julie: You’re putting me on the spot.

Frank: I’m learning… help me out.

Julie: Okay, so one of the things that we talk about with parents is really sort of tapping into the deeper being of your child. So what is it that you think is going on? What’s underneath the behavior? So if you think about behavior as a cue, right? What is it that he is cuing? So it sounds like he could be—there could be different things. Number one, it does keep you engaged on some level, right? His complaining and his sort of defeat, is it sort of defeative?

Frank: Yeah.

Julie: Okay. So it keeps you engaged?

Frank: It does.

Julie: Yeah. So does he need more connection and is this his sort of learned pattern of how you connect. And so how do you switch that up a little bit more? That might be one pathway. So what is the underlying communication? What is it that he is expressing and what do you think is fuelling it underneath? And that, every child is different. What fuels their behavior is different. So… and children will… I also think of manipulation as if we can directly say what we need, we often don’t need to manipulate. I’m not saying that there are people out there that don’t manipulate actively, right? But for the most part is we can directly say what we need and have… you know unreasonable chance of getting it?

Frank: Yeah, we don’t feel the need to act that way to be manipulative.

Julie: Exactly. Yes, exactly. So I would wonder, you know like what is… Does he feel incompetent? Does he—I would wonder what the underlying feelings are, I guess. That would be—

Frank: Interesting…

Julie: Yup. And so it’s not that you come up with a specific behavioural strategy to address it. but to really ponder… Probably the 3 of you together.

Frank: The entire relationship… Is—?

Julie: Yes.

Frank: Got you.

Julie: What is going on?

Frank: Why—

Julie: Why did—

Frank: No please, go on.

Julie: No, that was what I was going to say.

Frank: Why do you think parents and children get into power struggles?

Julie: Yeah… Oh [unclear]…

Nancy: Is that part of the human experience really?

Julie: Yeah… We all went our way on some level I’m sure.

Frank: We absolutely do.

Julie: And then, yeah… And I thin… The parents that I’ve seen that don’t get into power struggle, right? So what is it that they’re doing? They have a basic confidence in themselves and so they don’t take their children to behave personally and I think that helps them set limits and not feel a need to one up their child, right? And—

Frank: That’s powerful.

Julie: Pardon?

Frank: That’s powerful.

Nancy: How do you not take your child’s behavior personally as a parent?

Frank: Well they have their own struggles, they have their own…

Nancy: You mean—okay… Okay…

Frank: …preset, whatever going on… They have their journey that they need to—

Nancy: Work through?

Frank: Yeah. And what they’re doing with us and how they interact with us isn’t necessarily reflective of simply how they feel about us but it could be how they feel about the world and just how they see things.

Julie: Yup, yup.

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: That’s right? I said that right?

Julie: Yeah, yeah.

Frank: Okay. Alright.

Julie: Absolutely. Yes.

Frank: Okay. So I did—the student did a little coaching…

Nancy: An expert… An expert in his own right…

Julie: Yes…

Nancy: You know for some reason I want to say too that not only is it the parents’ confidence in him or herself. It’s also a kind of fundamental trust in the child.

Frank: Yeah.

Julie: And in the relationship.

Nancy: In the relationship, yeah.

Frank: And in god.

Nancy: Mercy.

Julie: Yes.

Frank: That’s thing will be alright. That you don’t have to make things a certain way that there is a bigger force at hand.

Nancy: Or nature.

Frank: Or nature.

Nancy: Yeah, so many people that don’t want to assign their…

Frank: Yeah.

Nancy: …power to something outside of themselves but… Yeah.

Frank: Okay.

Nancy: Okay.

Frank: Nancy, you remember last week’s show?

Nancy: Sure.

Frank: Tamiko Overton Parks?

Nancy: Tamiko, yes, yes, yes…

Frank: Tamiko of…

Nancy: Money and…

Frank: Miko’s… Nancy, you [unclear]…

Nancy: Miko’s Money Matters.

Frank: Yes.

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: Miko’s money Matters.

Nancy: Yes.

Frank: She’s got a plug for us this week. Well she’s got a tip, a money-saving, money-management tip.

Nancy: Cool.

Frank: So… Tamiko, please teach us something about money.

Tamiko: Have you ever caught your partners sneaking shopping bags in the house or even hiding credit card statements? Do you feel financially betrayed? Unfortunately, you are not alone. But don’t despair. Today, we’re talking about 5 ways to help you overcome financial infidelity.

1. Look at yourself. How are you contributing to your partner’s behavior? It’s really easy to sit back and believe that you have no part of what’s going on, it’s all your partner’s fault.

Well honestly, do you dominate the financial decisions that are made in your home? How did you react last time your partner wanted to buy something that was outside of the budget? Were you dismissive of their wants? Did you embarrass them? Even humiliate them?

2. Be vulnerable. Tell your partner EXACTLY how their behavior makes you feel. Please don’t bother to blame or embarrass them. It’s not going to be productive. They’ll only become defensive. Instead, tell them how you feel. You might say “I feel scared or worried when you overspend and don’t tell me.” You could even say “I feel that you don’t trust me, that you won’t tell me the truth.”

3. Listen to your partner. I want you to listen with your heart. Ask your partner why they feel they can’t tell you the truth. We want to get to the core of the matter, the reason behind your partner’s behavior. So when you sit down with your partner, make sure that you are open-minded and you create a safe space so your partner can be comfortable to talk to you about what’s going on. You want them to be honest with you and you have to be ready to hear their response because you might not like their response. But even if you disagree, remember you love this person. You’re going to honor their feelings.

4. I want you to forgive your partner, forgive yourself and move forward. I want you to move past your partner’s deceptive behavior towards financial intimacy and bliss. Spend your energy on moving forward towards the answer, solution. Because once you move forward together, I can guarantee you success will happen and will follow.

5. Come up with a new plan. Together, make sure both of your voices are heard especially your partner and create a new financial strategy. If it’s possible in your budget, make room so that your partner can openly spend of some of their secretive choices. This will help your partner feel heard and not deprived so they will follow and adhere to this new financial plan that you guys came up with together. Keyword: together.

Lastly, if you are still struggling, I am here to help. Let’s save your relationship and help you overcome financial betrayal. Call me at 202-695-2404 or visit my website at www.mikosmoneymatters.com. As always, let’s rescue your financial future together.

Frank: Thank you, Tamiko. We’re talking with social worker extraordinaire, Julie RIbaudo. She’s a clinical associate professor and at University of Michigan, School of Social Work with well over 20 years of experience. She’s also a string proponent of the Attachment Theory of interacting with children, particularly with those with difficult behaviors.

What do you say about corporal punishment? Or actually, before we can even get to that, crime and punishment, your general perspective on crime and punishment in a larger society.

Julie: I think we have in so many ways have criminalized childhood, that—children are sort of a mirror like of what we’ve given them. And so, we’re much more focused on punishment than on prevention. We spend a lot of money on juvenile justice and in the criminal justice system. I think we have the highest rate of incarceration in the civilized world, right?

Nancy: Yes.

Julie: And yet, we spend the least amount of money and probably childhood and provision of support to parents… Both these are a long time ago. [unclear] was the father attachment theory. That if a society values its children, will cherish their parents and he wasn’t saying—

Frank: That’s so…

Julie: —it in a nice, nice, lost, lost way exactly. It’s very deep. What he was saying is that we will [unclear] what they need in order to do well by their children and when we do that, then children grow up well. We’re inherently born to be social beings. We don’t have to socialize children into being social beings, they’re born social beings. We actually socialize them sometimes out of being social beings, right? So and then the thwarting of those relational needs create anger. And so a lot of our kids end up in difficult circumstances to feel fundamentally betrayed and despairing about their worlds and about bi people’s ability to protect them, or help them, or be strong and kind in life.

So.. I was listening to your piece on LeAnn Rimes and her husband and the ex… and there’s a fundamental rage there at being rejected, right?

Frank/Nancy: Yeah.

Julie: And so 7 years, yeah 7 years is a long time and it suggests to me that she’s had other histories of loss that has gone unresolved and so this now just, it’s the marker for the next—

Frank: Another one…

Julie: Yup.

Nancy: Another big one.

Julie: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Nancy: And she has these children to prove it.

Nancy: Yup, yup. So… So many—if you look at incarcerated youth in particular, the numbers of traumas that they have experienced are astronomical. Like anywhere from 6-14 traumas. You know, being neglected, being abused, witnessing domestic violence, being sexually abused, not feeling loved, being hungry, not getting needs met, being exposed to a substance-abused parent, right? These are all adverse sort of events that accumulate and stress in our body… And so, we are leaving children on their own to cope with really big things when we don’t provide support and when we only provide punishment instead of intervention and prevention.

So that’s my case. We are reaping what was sown

Frank: Yes.

Julie: And we don’t want to look at it. We want to blame the children. Children nowadays will… What are we doing to really support them and really give family and their children what they need.

Frank: I can talk to you forever… There’s a lot of—and what you just said, that’s a whole another show.

Nancy: A couple shows.

Frank: We’re talking with social worker extraordinaire, Julie Ribaudo. She’s a clinical associate professor and at University of Michigan, School of Social Work with well over 20 years of experience. She’s also a string proponent of the Attachment Theory of interacting with children, particularly with those with difficult behaviors.

Julie, one more time, for those of us who are particularly interested in your consulting work, teachers, education professionals, people who work with children, please tell our listeners where they can find you.

Julie: Well I’m at the University of Michigan, School of Social Work. You can go to the website there and find my profile or email me at jribaudo@umich.edu. And if I don’t respond right away, just do a follow-up. I’ll do the best that I can to respond to people that I teach a lot to.

Frank: Yes.

Nancy: Great.

Frank: Along today’s journey, we discussed how older siblings are related to how we raise our children, why parent-child struggles exist and quite simply the Attachment Theory. I hope you’ve had as much fun as I had learning about the Attachment Theory and various perspectives related to raising children effectively with social worker extraordinaire, Julie Ribaudo.

As always, it’s my wish for you to walk away from this conversation with a heaping helping of useful information that I hope you create a relation that’s as loving and accepting as possible.

Let us know what you think of today’s show at facebook.com/relationshipflove, on Twitter at @mrfranklove or at franklove.com. If you’re listening via Blog Talk Radio, make sure you like us there and if via iTunes, make sure you subscribe so that you can receive each week’s show.

This is Frank love.

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