What can a former madam teach you about relationships, romance and redemption? We’ll find out on this edition of Frank Relationships.
FRANK RELATIONSHIPS: VERNA MASSDIN, A FORMER MADAM
Guests: Verna Massdin
Date: May 9, 2016
Frank: What can a former madam teach you about relationships, romance and redemption? We’ll find out on this edition of Frank Relationships.
Yeah. As always, those are my babies. Thanks for getting daddy’s daughter today.
Welcome to Frank Relationships where we provide a candid, fresh and frank look in the relationships with goals of acceptance, respect and flexibility. I’m Frank Love and you can find me, my blog and my various social media incarnations at franklove.com.
You can also find me on ABC’s Good Morning Washington most Friday mornings during the 9 o’ clock hour. If you’re listening to the show on Blog Talk Radio, please follow us and if via iTunes, please subscribe so that you can effortlessly get each show each week.
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Greetings to my super duper co-host, Nancy Goldring.
Nancy: Hi, Frank. How are you?
Frank: I’m great. How you doing?
Nancy: I’m great. Thank you.
Frank: The consummate generalist in the house…
Nancy: Indeed. Most descriptively.
Frank: We’re also joined by today’s visiting co-host, Charlotte.
Charlotte: Howdy, ya’ll.
Frank: What’s up, Charlotte?
Charlotte: Oh I’m having a great morning. Glad to be here.
Frank: Oh boy, you’re bringing the twang?
Charlotte: I am.. I am. It’s been a busy week. I’m a little tired. So the twang is present.
Frank: In effect… Who are you and what do you do, Charlotte?
Charlotte: I am… I live in a suburban Washington D.C. I’m a mother of two teenagers. So I earned a couple of stripes for that. Work full-time…
Frank: I don’t know about that… I got five.
Charlotte: I know but you don’t have five teenagers.
Nancy: Right, right…
Charlotte: So… a part of the community, help out where I can and just doing my thing.
Charlotte: One boy, one girl.
Frank: Great to have you.
Charlotte: Thank you.
Frank: Each week, with Charlotte, there’s a visiting co-host chair available in the studio. If you’re in the Washington D.C. area or travelling to the D.C. area and want to join us on a given Thursday morning, email me at firstname.lastname@example.org and let me know. We’ll see where we go from there.
Charlotte, who do you think you’re going to get along best today? Me or Nancy?
Nancy: Don’t be intimidated, Charlotte.
Frank: Or Jeff? I’m going to stick with Jeff on you if you don’t answer right.
Nancy: Oh my goodness… The strong silent [unclear]…
Charlotte: Well I don’t know. He’s been talking quite a bit in his latest shows, I’ve noticed. I am a regular Frank listener too.
Nancy: Oh cool. Okay, okay.
Charlotte: So, I’m going to get along with everybody today.
Frank: Okay, you got to go.
Nancy: Frank likes controversy, Charlotte.
Frank: Too much political [unclear].
Charlotte: I’m aware, I’m aware.
Frank: Alright, today’s guest was a five-year old baby girl who endured sexual abuse, was hurled into a life of abandonment and promiscuity and then orchestrated an underworld enterprise. She did all of that and is now an evangelist. Wow.
So, if you like me, want to know how she found herself in compromising situations, how the mix of abuse and the need for approval affected her (and can affect all of us) and how she overcame all of that, then stay tuned as your Frank Relationships Team talks with former stripper, madam, drug dealer and turned evangelist, Verna Massdin.
Welcome to the show.
Verna: Thank you so much for having me, Frank Love.
Frank: Thank you for being here.
Verna: Thank you, Nancy.
Verna: Glad to be here.
Frank: Alright, alright. Verna, before we get deep into your interview, we do a segment called anything in the news, what’s in the news, all that good stuff. So, okay, who’s up? Anybody got anything in the news?
Nancy: You’re up.
Frank: Related to relationships? Okay, I’m up.
Nancy: You’re up.
Frank: Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Frank: Studies find that marriage increases the odds of surviving cancer. Is that surprising?
Frank: Not surprising at all?
Nancy: Not at all.
Frank: Is that—
Charlotte: Not surprising.
Frank: Why isn’t it surprising?
Charlotte: Because I think things—everything is easier, stresses in life are easier when you have people around you that you can depend on to help you out through those difficulties.
Nancy: And… I will say that actually it’s not just cancer. There are studied that how that people who are married fair better physiologically and in terms of their overall happiness than people who are single.
Nancy: And I think that it has something to do with the nature of being committed to another human being. I can’t separate it from anything else because plenty of people are in relationships. people have rich, dynamic relationships with their family, their friends… and yet statistically, that we don’t know who’s keeping the numbers, or doing the factoring or testing. Statistics show on various different subjects that married people simply fair better all the time.
Frank: Are there maybe some muscles that married people use that single folks don’t?
Nancy: Oh sure. Sure I consider marriage to be a kind of roc-tumbling experience. You know, you get in there with another human being and ultimately, a rock tumbler polishes the stone down to something very beautiful. If the two people can endure it.
Verna: Yeah, I like to chime in. Now, when I first got married, at the 6 months, my husband was diagnosed with testicular cancer.
Verna: And with that being said, when he was saying that he was going to die, I kept encouraging him that that he was not going to die, he was going to live. So having the support system helped him, and once he got through it, he was just telling me how he was thankful I was there to help him at that very tough place in life.
Frank: And he does remain… through?
Verna: He’s cancer-free, yes.
Frank: Oh, that’s great.
Verna: That’s great.
Nancy: Yeah, fabulous.
Frank: So okay. There are some interesting muscles to note. There’s a play that I went to see a few weeks ago, it was called “The Nether”. I don’t know if it’s still out but it was playing here in Washington D.C. I forgot the theatre. But it introduces a virtual world where things that are considered crimes in the real world may or may not be considered crimes in the virtual world.
Frank: Stuff like child—and it really goes into the child molestation piece… So for example, atleast this is my understanding, you could be—well, I saw it so I got a little bit to go on—you could be a child in this virtual world and someone that wants to be an adult pedophile in this world participates in something lewd with this virtual crime. And the question is, is it a crime? The thing is, you could be a child in this virtual world and an adult in the real world… and that child allows themselves to be molested. It’s wild.
Nancy: They participate?
Frank: Yeah. And… so I guess it leads to a question would virtual cheating or what people considered cheating would that be a crime? If you sat a computer and control the life of an avatar of some sort…
Frank: …would and that avatar was having sex with someone completely different, would that be a problem in a relationship? Would it not? Could it be? Could it not? Anybody got anything? Charlotte, you look like mighty puzzled like… I don’t know.
Charlotte: Yeah, I’m trying to wrap my head around all this… avatar would work, period. Much less, take it to that next level in terms of a relationship. If one person has an avatar, theoretically everyone would have an avatar and that would be a part of their daily life.
Frank: But would that—
Nancy: Atleast in their virtual construct, yes.
Frank: But it would be another world.
Frank: So the world of avatars, how much would the person control in those avatars be charged with what the avatar does?
Nancy: Say that again? If you have an avatar, you’re in total charge of with that avatar.
Frank: Yes. You’re controlling it but—
Nancy: How responsible are you?
Frank: How responsible are you for that.
Frank: Okay, so if the avatar does something, molest a child or is a child that is molested—
Nancy: Molested in a virtual world—
Frank: Yes, in a virtual world.
Charlotte: They still molested.
Nancy: Let me say this to you, Frank. Let me just say this because you know, I’ve actually had a similar conversation with someone a few years ago… some of us—
Frank: You’re a weirdo.
Nancy: Something right? Okay so—
Frank: The fact that you had this conversation with someone else…
Nancy: And I didn’t know about the news clip, yes.
Frank: Hey, give me my…
Nancy: Let me give you your moment in the sun…
Frank: Hey yo…
Nancy: It is because it didn’t get as intense as child molestation… However, I had this friend who was living in a communal situation. You know, he’s not living by himself. And so, he makes mention a couple of times that his fruit is going missing. And I said, well you know, fruit kind of has that “take me I’m yours” kind of energy to it. You sit in a bowl and it’s just kind of there for the picking, so to speak.
Nancy: And he said, “Yeah,” he said, “But I don’t take anybody else’s food,” he says. So I’m thinking there’s more to it than that. Time goes by, we talk again and he says, “Somebody took one of my bananas.” And I’m like, okay. Wait a minute… so then finally now, what you have to know is that underneath of this, he and I were in a… let’s say a… a kind of… can I get this out? A conversation around the idea of the principles of universal law which essentially asserts that you are 100% responsible for your experience, okay?
Nancy: And that nothing is happening to you that you are not doing. Okay. So then—
Frank: Or causing.
Nancy: Or causing. So I said to him, I said, “Okay, well… where are you stealing?” and he’s like “where am I stealing?”
Frank: Or how are you—
Nancy: All I said was—
Frank: —influencing your environment that you steal from you.
Nancy: —where are you stealing? And I kept this straight no chase.
Nancy: To achieve response… ow… he says “Well…” and I so wish I could remember the name of it. “There’s this game I’m playing,” he said. “In this game, I steal things.” He said, “In this game, all crimes are legal.” He said, “But I can’t bring myself to commit these other crimes,” he says, “But I steal from people the whole time.” I said, “Well then,” I said, “Keep in mind to the mind. There is no difference between fantasy and reality. So if you are stealing virtually, you are stealing. However, the action or—what do you call it? The consequences of your actions are reverberating out into your actual world. Now it was minor they’re stealing this fruit. But let me just say, he was not happy.
Frank: With your… wisdom?
Nancy: He was not happy about that interpretation of what was happening to him though I do believe he stopped stealing in that game.
Frank: Now, does… if you were stealing… does that—do you become closer to the thief or do you shut down your inner thief? Which direction do you go in? Because if you were in this other virtual world where you get to conceptually, you get to do what you want to do without punishment.
Frank: And nobody’s telling him to steal, I assume.
Nancy: Well here’s the thing,
Frank: But that’s the crime he was okay with.
Nancy: That’s the crime he was okay with—and I feel that he was only okay with that because of the possible crimes he could have committed in his real life, in the real world. He felt that that was probably the least unconscionable of the ones available like child molestation or whatever else. People can kill, you know, murder…
Charlotte: Well also it was in a scenario. He was in a situation. He put himself in a place where these crimes or these possibilities were options and he was surrounded—now I have two teenagers and they spend time online on games and they’re in a sense, alternate realities. They are the realities they are in when they are playing those games.
Charlotte: And they have friends and they have people they can depend on and people they know they can’t depend on. It is highly sophisticated, limited organization, or society.
Nancy: Right, closed society, yes.
Charlotte: And so he put himself in there. And presumably, there are other people atleast allowing him to do that, if not encouraging him to do that and perhaps encouraging and wanting him to do other things that he doesn’t feel comfortable with.
Nancy: Well here’s the problem to your question. You’re asking—well I’m thinking, let me take responsibility for what I’m thinking. I’m thinking when you say “are you responsible for what you do in a virtual world” where the rules are, that there are no rules, or atleast that your crimes and that crimes in this world, was there to take responsibility for?
Frank: Well, I’m not asking “are you responsible?” I’m asking “HOW responsible are you?” maybe that’s what I’m asking.
Nancy: Well there are no actionable offenses occurring.
Frank: But that’s in that—
Frank: No, not in that world. There may be an offense in that world but not in this world.
Nancy: Right. Right.
Frank: Alright, okay.
Nancy: Go ahead, Jeff.
Frank: No, no.
Jeff: I will not editorialize, but the question is “Did you walk away from this show with some sort of life lesson? Did it make you introspective about how you deal with things in a REAL world? Because it sounds to me like that’s all fantasy and not to be crass or judgemental, but in a fantasy world, there is no molestation. Okay? There are no rules, there are no—
Nancy: Stuff just happen.
Jeff: You’re not accountable because hey, if I didn’t have an avatar… it’d be out there doing stuff that I can’t do because I would punished, or it would be wrong, or even illegal in some respects. So that’s why this is fantasy, it’s a dream world that’s… just like watching some science fiction stuff or close to it. time travel, you know… no, of course not but are there rules in time travel?
Frank: You act like you done it.
Nancy: Watch yourself.
Jeff: Travelling at times since that’s impossible there’s not going to—I’m going back and killing Lee Harvey Oswald two weeks before. And I said that because I’ve been watching this series, 11 22 63 which I recommend.
Jeff: It’s crazy
Nancy: Okay, okay.
Jeff: God goes back in time.
Frank: But even if that is crazy, you trying to tell me you think Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy?
Jeff: And that’s part of the show. Maybe he didn’t.
Jeff: Let’s go on back to find out.
Nancy: Frank is in to confirm. He couldn’t possibly have.
Frank: I mean, does that even—
Nancy: Try manipulation crossfire.
Frank: Yeah, is it even possible that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy? I mean or by himself…
Jeff: Or he didn’t act alone. Yeah.
Jeff: That’s part of the—that’s why the show’s so cool because…
Nancy: Right, right…
Jeff: But back to the point, I think plays like that are wonderful because it does make you introspective. What would I or could I do if I had the ability to bend the rules or bend the reality? You know… and that I think makes you more accountable for your real world behavior.
Frank: And add to…
Nancy: More accountable.
Frank: Well yeah. It’s… I hear—there’s a conversation that says—
Frank: It is a conversation that says you are the person that you are—what is it?
Nancy: When nobody’s looking?
Frank: When no one’s looking. That’s who you really are. And it’s kind of along the same line. So I just posed the question and if anybody wants to answer, I will answer. And, but it’s kind of not fair for the me to answer because I think my answer though it’s true—I mean it really is true—it’s politically correct. So I mean—
Nancy: So what’s your answer?
Frank: I wouldn’t—I haven’t even asked the question yet.
Nancy: Oh okay…
Frank: Just preference in what I’m going to say.
Nancy: Alright, alright.
Frank: So… would you—if you could do something and in another world and not be punished for it, would you do it? and when I think about my life now, and if I juxtapose myself into another world, I can’t think of anything I would do in another world that can’t do now that I don’t do now. so I’m pretty good with—
Nancy: You’re straight up and down kind of guy, is that what you’re telling us?
Frank: I was straight up and down, no… but good with me—
Nancy: Yeah, yeah okay…
Frank: —in my world as it is and… that’s what… I kind of ask that of let everybody answer to that for themselves. You don’t have to answer it out loud. But just think about it—
Nancy: Yes you do.
Frank: I wonder what the—No, no, no… I’m not going to put anybody on the spot.
Nancy: I’m joking.
Frank: But unless you want to. But enjoy…
Nancy: The opportunity, yeah…
Frank: The self conversation.
Frank: Okay, moving on… Verna, hello.
Verna: Hello there, Frank.
Frank: So, we got a question we ask everybody every week and we’ll kick it off with—in fact, no, Nancy you take it away.
Nancy: Verna, what advice would you give to a 25 year old couple with a baby due in 2 months?
Verna: The advice I would give to a 25 year old couple that have a baby due in 2 months is to try to save up their change or maybe dollar that’s broken and put it in a piggy bank. In that way, if they need some pampers or maybe a can of [unclear] or [unclear], they’ll have some change in the house if they don’t have money already in the bank.
Nancy: Oh, that’s interesting.
Frank: I’ve heard of people doing that… where if you come home in—whatever change is in your pocket, when you come home that day, you dump it into the piggy bank and that’s—you start the next day with free of change.
Nancy: Can I tell you something?
Frank: Do I have a choice?
Nancy: Always, Frank. Take your headphones off. I work with a young woman whose grandparents did that everything and they just kept saving the change, saving the change. She goes to visit them once, and she’s bored. They say, “Oh, we got something for you to do.” She rolls all the change that they have been accumulating over the years. They had $10,000 in change in the house.
Charlotte: Absolutely. Because I did that.
Charlotte: I did that when I first got married and I have been saving change and then when we went into our honeymoon, we had hundreds of dollars to take with us.
Frank: So you got on a plane with a whole bunch of bags in—
Charlotte: No we were in a boat. We were going to the Bahamas.
Nancy: And everybody has [unclear]…
Charlotte: We cashed it in. It gave us every seat sold in. We got the money but its good.
Frank: And when you got on the boat, were you getting on—you’re from Baltimore, right?
Frank: Did you get into the Baltimore Harvard, go out to the middle of the [unclear] and then come back? Was that the honeymoon?
Charlotte: No, no, to the Bahamas from the town, Florida at first and then from Florida went to Bahamas. Seven days lived on the water.
Frank: I may do that. I may take that because I do end the day with some change in my pocket and drop that in the—
Nancy: Well you know what, I used to—I can’t say I don’t do it. I used to do it more than I do it now, simply because I realized, I don’t really handle a lot of cash anymore.
Frank: Money, yeah, yeah. Cash is not the main kind of currency.
Nancy: Yeah. So I find that every once in a while, I can dump up my bag and I’m like, “Oh. And I have these little containers that I throw the change in to,” but it’s not nearly as much change as I used to accumulate say… 10 years ago.
Frank: I get it, I get it. Maybe bit coin start.
Nancy: Woah… Yes, yes…
Frank: I don’t even really know how bit coin works but I hear about it…
Nancy: Hello? Are you listening? We need a bit coin expert on the show because I want to know. Call us.
Verna: Yeah. My grandson, when he came from the UK, he bought a bunch of change from the UK and I was looking at it. I was amazed like how big their pennies were, their nickels were, compared to ours. But you could also take that money and exchange it, you know…
Nancy: Yeah, even your foreign change.
Verna: Your foreign change.
Frank: Okay, Verna, what’s your story? How’d you get to be a player in a world’s oldest profession?
Verna: Well actually I went to a party in Virginia some years ago of a girl friend of mine, Virginia Beach. They have spring break every year. I went down there to spring break and—
Frank: This was? Give me the decade.
Verna: This was in the… I’m going to say in the ‘80s.
Verna: Maybe early ‘90s.
Verna: Around that window and I went to that party in Virginia Beach with my girl friend and I got there and they said to my girl friend that they wanted me to dance and do a song for a hundred dollars. So I did that song for a hundred dollars, and I said, “Well a hundred dollars to dance all of the song about 3 minutes long.” That was good.
Verna: And so that’s how I got started. When I—at that particular party, that weekend, I came from Virginia with $1500 and so Star Enterprise was born.
Frank: Now how many—I mean that was just one song? So what, you continued doing songs for another hundred dollars at the same party or you went to some other parties? How’d you—
Nancy: Get $1500.
Frank: —get $1500?
Charlotte: Yeah, because the weekend we just kept on doing parties and stuff like that and we were going actually… hanging out and just—people was constantly coming to the hotel. Some people constantly come to the hotel. Everybody—we had the whole hotel hemmed up. We were just trying to parties every floor to get as much money as we could for that weekend.
Frank: Alright, let’s take it back to 5 year old baby girl. Your story, atleast my understanding of your story starts around the unique and the place where you went in terms of some of the colorful aspects of life started around that time. Let’s hear it. What happened?
Verna: Right. Around that time, when I would take a nap, one of my oldest siblings would… abuse me, during my nap time… at 5 years old.
Frank: And what did that abuse look like?
Verna: It looked like… something that I knew that he wasn’t supposed to be doing… you know, with me.
Frank: You knew at 5?
Verna: Yeah, I mean I knew… because it just didn’t feel right. So basically, at that young age, at 5 years old, I know that if you’re taking a nap, that someone should not be on top of you while you’re laying down, taking a nap. I knew that.
Nancy: And how much older was he?
Verna: He was a teenager.
Frank: So are we talking 13? 18? 19?
Verna: Yeah, he was around 18.
Verna: Right around 18.
Frank: Late teenager? Got you. And so that did what—and this was, you were living with your family? Or you guys were in foster care…? What was the landscape?
Verna: Yeah, I was living with my own—with my family.
Frank: Got you. Alright.
Verna: It was a whole bunch of us.
Nancy: Did you tell?
Verna: I didn’t tell because I didn’t know to tell… at 5 years old, I didn’t have a voice.
Nancy: Got it.
Verna: So… by me not having a voice at 5 years old, I basically just endured it. There were siblings that I find out later that knew about it but they didn’t say anything about it.
Frank: They knew about it, as it pertained to YOU?
Verna: Yes, about me being molested.
Nancy: But they were not… like your sister, nobody else… kind of endured that experience?
Verna: Right. To my knowledge, I was the only one but like I said, some of the other siblings knew about it but they just didn’t say anything about to tell years later when I became an adult.
Frank: And what did they say when you became an adult?
Verna: One of my siblings mentioned that she knew about it. That was her reason why she didn’t like that particular brother.
Frank: And what did—what happened next? I mean what impact did that have on you?
Verna: Well I believe that… personally, I believe that that seed of immorality at such a young age, I believe that it had impacted my life because when I was older, I was raped by another family member. So I really believe that from 5 to 14, that it really changed my life in a very profound way because it’s trust. Your trust issues were broken. Some person that you trust that you would go to the store with them, to the market with them, always talking to them. So I felt like I could trust the person that to have that betrayal like that.
So I think that kind of helped, kind of pulled me into the direction that I ended up going into because as a teen, I was very rebellious, I was smoking marijuana, embalming fluid which is something that you put in when they die, and I got locked up at 14 from smoking that embalming fluid, walking down the street, and—
Frank: What’s the street name for that?
Verna: Walking on a block.
Nancy: No, the fluid.
Nancy: Is there a street—
Verna: Embalming fluid. Yeah, it’s just in the tip of my tongue.
Nancy: good grief.
Frank: Okay, alright.
Nancy: What is it? I don’t know.
Frank: I, I—
Verna: It was just in the tip of my tongue.
Frank: Yeah… I used to know it…
Verna: Yeah, just… it’ll come back to me.
Frank: But go on.
Verna: So anyway… and then I—
Verna: Dippers. Yeah.
Frank: That’s what—
Jeff: [unclear] nitrate?
Frank: I don’t know. That’s not a street name.
Nancy: What did you call it?
Verna: And there’s another name…
Jeff: [Unclear / Amolt nitrate]
Nancy: [Unclear / Amolt nitrate]. Okay yeah…
Frank: That’s what—
Jeff: I think so.
Frank: Okay, okay…
Verna: Yeah that’s another but just… escaped me at this moment but anyway… So if we know at that point or boat, like love boat, like that… and so… I just got into looking at pornography basically and looking at stag magazines and stuff like that.
Frank: I just asked a few days ago, what’s that? What is stag magazine?
Verna: A stag magazine is a magazine that’s a Playboy magazine, it’s the type of magazine with nude women in there.
Frank: Okay. So—
Nancy: But there was not an actual magazine called “Stag Magazine”?
Nancy: That’s what they just call that—
Verna: At that time, stag. Yeah, the name for… pornography.
Verna: You know I don’t—
Nancy: Porn days or whatever they call it…
Verna: Back then, yeah… So it was pornography, it was porn.
Verna: At that point, I found… and my dad’s [unclear / jour] and a lot of stag magazines at his [unclear / jour] and I took the pictures out… and basically, pasted it on across my bedroom wall and came down stairs and tell my dad to come and look at the pictures that’s on my wall because I figured if he was doing it, it was something…
Verna: So I let my dad—
Charlotte: What did he do when you… told him about that?
Verna: He looked at the room, he seen all that pictures around there and he was like “No, no, no baby… Take it down, take it down.”
Verna: He like woahh girl…
Frank: Albright. So when did the—when did you become a… I guess professional… when did you really start making money in the streets and HOW did you make money in the streets?
Verna: Yeah it was kind of like making money already like in my 20’s I was always selling weed and growing weed plants in my own home. And so couple with the exotic dancing, when I got into the adult industry, I was making money from dancing and… it took me a really few years to really build that empire and what that’s exactly what it was, underground empire. I had a hundred girls and 20 guys and it was a 24/7 brothel that everybody came to, fed away just came, police came…
Verna: You know… fastest…
Frank: We’re not talking about to lock you up. We’re talking about to—
Verna: Nah, they came to get their debby on…
Nancy: Nah, I’ve never heard that before “get your debby on…”
Frank: Okay, go. What’s “debby”?
Nancy: WHO is debby? Enlighten us, Verna.
Verna: So they came there to play. They came there to have girls, they came there to live off some of their fantasies and they came to why some of the girls perform but mostly they wanted to have a girl to be with them in whatever fantasy they wanted.
Frank: What are some of those fantasies that expressed?
Verna: I mean, it went from anything you probably could… imagine or not… but in anyway, some of the fantasies were being with 20 girls at a time. So one of the guys came, he paid for 20 girls. So he had 20 girls and he rammed right through them, you know… and so…
Frank: Wow. And so how do you do that? Do you use the same condom? Going for 20 or? How does it work?
Verna: Well I personally think that he was changing up because I always made sure that the rooms had condoms in there, had towels in there, had various things that people would need it to make sure they were clean and stuff like that, and the ladies weren’t playing… made sure that they didn’t get their self together, you know stuff like that…
Frank: Really? So you actually monitored and facilitated hygiene also?
Verna: Absolutely because if we were doing a party somewhere and if gentleman came and said they want to go [unclear] and I will pull off the floor and let it go and clean up and get us of together and… I kept feminine sprays and stuff like that and everything. It was a real 24 hours, it was a real business. And made sure they were okay because I didn’t want anything to interfere with my clientele, and the money that I was making on a daily base. So I made sure that they were okay and I would… tweak anything about them that they did not know there was no whereabout, like if they didn’t know how to dance or do a set, if they weren’t good with being [unclear], you know a trick, I would come in there, I would tell them how to be with them and what to do, and stuff like that and I would charge the guys to use the room and then I would charge them for whatever services they wanted to have rendered.
Frank: And you had one house? Many houses? Or did that house kind of change each week? Was it a different house each week?
Verna: No it was a house. It was my house. It was my living accommodations that I had on a weekend, it was a brothel where men came in all doing the night if they wanted to, some of the girls would stay over at the house and they will leave with thousands of dollars in the morning.
Frank: Good night. And so how did you deal with security? Because you had to have some level of security when you’re dealing with probably men—
Nancy: And cash.
Frank: —in an illegal world… What was the security like?
Verna: Well, when I first started out, I did have body guards for myself personally and then as time went on, I just purchased—I wore a gun myself. The people that knew me, they went at the parties like the police were there so I knew it wasn’t going to pop off because the police were already there and my mindset was I had to be my side pockets so whatever I wanted to do, I could do and that was good.
Frank: And did you keep—I see movies where… intelligent, collecting information—did you keep information on people? Or did you—was it strictly no records? So were you the only depot of information or did you make little notes in say you know, I need this, I got something to help me if I get into buying?
Verna: Yeah. Absolutely, I had my book. In my book, I had contact information, different things like that from my own personal records that I needed to keep and just to remind myself of who’s who and to remind myself of certain girls, did things at parties that I didn’t like—
Verna: —or put them on punishment, like we did a party over the East side and when the ladies were really, really drunk, she started cussing to one of the guys. So I pulled her up and I just suspended her and told her she couldn’t do any parties for a while because it affected her being drunk and acting like that because that stuff I just did not tolerate. It was a very high class ran organization in terms of the business part where the fads at my stall—
Verna: They had my phone tapped and they were sending me messages through some of the drug dealers that I was affiliated with and sent me notes for me to turn myself in but…
Frank: Turn yourself in?
Nancy: Because they didn’t even want to interrupt your phone… we wanted to call but we don’t want to bust the door down, we like Verna… that’s what it sounds like.
Verna: And that’s exactly right.
Verna: And they would send in my stall because they would be literally on the roof across the street from my house with guns and stuff. They would watch me and they had me under surveillance.
Frank: You knew that?
Verna: I knew it. but because I was so bold and so brazen and I just didn’t consider them because I felt as though whatever charm I use whenever I would get in situations, I will use the same charm and I had this big book of all the girls that was nude basically with dildos and all types of positions. So if they roll up on me at my house I would go get the book and come outside and give it to them. That would distract them from looking at the nude women and stuff like that and I would just tell them, the ones that did come to my house, they had police deployed around my house and they had their machine guns out. They were at my backyard, my whole neighbourhood was in front of my house, looking at me and I took the book out there to one of the police because I did mostly all of the police department’s bachelorette parties.
Nancy: And they stood down?
Verna: And they stood down and I asked him, “Can you get your crew out of my yard?” so they rolled out.
Frank: God. Talk about a guest… like… where did we get you from? I’m sitting here… that’s a… you got a story. Thank you for being here. What you got, Jeff?
Jeff: Who has the film rights?
Frank: I mean that’s real! That’s a real question.
Nancy: He’s actually working. She’s actually, yeah…
Verna: Yeah, I had…
Nancy: I’m sorry…
Verna: …a publicist and so… that’s the goal, to make a film based off of my life. We’re going to do a documentary. In the documentary, I’m going to perform in the documentary as myself and my publishing company, inviting me if I wanted to come to New York and I could pitch my story for 10 minutes to the Hollywood producers but I didn’t want them to Hollywood it up. I wanted them to tell all of it, tell that side and tell when my life changed, when God changed my life.
But living in that life was so gangster. I look at Empire and I look at Scandal, and I’m like they had nothing on the life that I lived. That stuff that they’ve re-enacted. This is stuff that I actually lived day by day by day for years.
Charlotte: How long did you lived like this?
Verna: Oh. It was more than 20 years.
Frank: Hey, you know, funny enough as I’m listening to you, I don’t hear gangster. I hear… maybe I do. I hear a don, like I hear somebody who is at the top, who doesn’t really need to have their hands dirty with the stuff that we think about in terms of gangster but more like… it’s kind of synonymous but more like organized crime.
Verna: That’s exactly right, Frank. At a point, like somebody wanted like 30 girls, I would bring the ladies and I was like, I would take the pain. I would pay them what I wanted and but at each party, the guys were like, “Well Star, we want YOU to dance because you were like the headliner,” and I would do a heck of a show if I might add but… and then the drug part of it, I was getting like bricks of marijuana from the Hollands and they were coming to people houses that I’ would give a hundred dollars to to let the brick come to their house and I would go pick it up. We would go get a hotel room and bag up the weed and stuff like that and… had a doorbell on the back of my place so, if anybody wanted to come do an [unclear] they can come to get crack or weed—
Nancy: Like a drive-thru?
Frank: At your home—?
Verna: I had a doorbell on the back window of my house.
Frank: And who would serve? I mean…
Verna: The guy I was dating would serve who else was in at my house I would serve the back window, they would serve it at the back window who drugs and stuff like that… and I had a real light on the front of my house because people that way, they would come into block, they could just know that was my house because I had the real light there.
Verna: And I kept it under [unclear] for many years. People didn’t know for years because I was just so… incognito what I was doing, it’s just that they didn’t know.
Nancy: And yet you were… out front too. I guess in the world that you travelled in, you were known.
Verna: Yeah, I was known everywhere.
Nancy: And yet… Go ahead.
Verna: Yes, Nancy. People knew me that I didn’t even know, they would see me, like “Hi Star.” And I’m like, “Hi.” And when they would see me, someone would act in the way like… sad but you like I was a guy with a small G. You know what I’m saying? I had [unclear] one day. He was like, “Well Star, you want anybody killed?” and I said, “No,” because everybody knew it was a snitch and I was like “If I want someone killed, I would do it myself because I myself, I walked while the guns are on me constantly… because of things that I was involved in. And like I said, I had the police, officers’ private number. So if I got into a situation, I know I could call their cellphone and they would just roll right up on the situation and just take care of it.
Nancy: Take care of it… wow.
Charlotte: Wow. So the police were basically your private security force?
Verna: Absolutely, unequivocally correct.
Frank: Okay. I have never had this few question—I mean, as I am listening…
Jeff: The reason why I mentioned the word “film” is that similar to what Denzel did with Frank—what’s his name? American Gangster. This isn’t a gangster movie, it’s a story of American entrepreneurship answered by [unclear] could be that bull. I think what’s admirable is that you came out of it because the end of this movie for most is not someone sitting at the table and talking about.
Jeff: And how did you break away from?
Frank: Well before even… how you got out, was there a low? So did you end up getting locked up?
Verna: Yeah. I went to apply for this job as an officer at a major corporation and then when I got there, when the police officers told me that I had to turn myself in because I had outstanding warrants out on me, and I was their outstanding warrants for what? And nevertheless he said, this one guy beat before my pool stick—
Frank: You had beat with a pool stick?
Verna: And he was a real build—like, he was a body builder and I was like… “Oh he’s a child,” because he went in and got put out on— So I had to turn myself in before I went to jail. So I went and took some money out so I can post bond and I turned myself in but there would be times I would get locked up and call my girls and tell my girls that mom’s in jail, don’t open my front door. But the fast one to put me away for a long time because some of the girls I was in my arsenal were like 14 years old and I would go to the clubs on the block and I would go in there to list the girls and pull them out the club and put them on the strip to work for me because I felt like I would protect them more than the gentlemen would do down on the block which I did. I felt as though if they worked for me, that I would be able to have them at the brothel as well because they want to be at the brothel… because they knew if they came out, they were going to make a lot of money the next morning went home to buy the boy friend or kids, she use or whatever they wanted to buy them.
Nancy: So you felt… there was no… you didn’t have anything going on about the girls being 14? You feel that they were going to be out there anyway?
Frank: It was a lesser two evils?
Verna: No, actually I didn’t know that the girls were 14 because we’re going to those clubs, the guys that run those clubs sort of some [unclear] but most of the people that run those clubs, they don’t care about how young the girls are that come in those clubs. They just slap away on their head and put some makeup on, use some stilettos, use some [unclear], and the thong and the off… so when I met the girls, I knew they were young but I didn’t know they were THAT young until we were at a party up in Marlboro… and the guy was [unclear] and he pushed some of the girls down the step backwards when they came back and it was [unclear] I was like, that’s a negative [unclear] girls coming to this party. And so, one of them called the police. So the police came then she called me and she says “Star, I have something to tell you,” and then that’s when I found out that she was 14. She said, “I’m only 14” and I was just looking at her like, what? And she said “I’m only 14.” So I said, well don’t let anybody talk, I’ll just talk to the police.
Frank: And these were… even in PG, were those police officers you had relationships with?
Verna: But they just rolled out. You know what I mean? He just left because I always knew how to talk. I don’t care who I met whatever level they were, I knew how to talk. So… you and I were like on a set or some of the movies that would come to Baltimore, rob a town [unclear] did, media man, so I was in that movie. So I want to set with different celebrities and stuff like that. I knew how to talk to people. It’s like I could wear whatever head I needed to wear at that particular time to communicate.
Nancy: And then those instances, atleast in the upper Marlboro situation, you were just booking a party.
Verna: Yeah. The party was already there—
Verna: Yeah it was already booked. So we were at the party, doing the party. The girls went out to the store and when they came back, the guy—he was trippin’ because he was geekin’. And so by him geekin’, he just pushed him down the step. I don’t know why he pushed him down there but I’ll tell you what the popo game and then they left anyway. We went out with the party, made the money we wanted to make.
Frank: We’re definitely going to get to where Jeff was asking about, the redemption part absolutely. I just have a few more questions.
Frank: Would you compare yourself to a male pimp? What made you better?
Frank: I assume you think it’s better. I assume you think you were better.
Verna: Than a male?
Frank: Than a male… for the ladies.
Verna: Well yeah, I respect… it’s all the same, don’t get me wrong—but the thing about it is, I wasn’t going to like kill the girls. I want to have them killed. If they didn’t do something—I mean, I [unclear] don’t get me wrong. If I had to smack them up, I would smack them up but I won’t go and kill them if they didn’t bring no money home. If anything, I was going to make sure they had more clients to bring in the mind that, need to [unclear].
Frank: Okay, alright, alright. Charlotte, you’re pretty… your eyes are wide and… like wow… So let’s talk about the redemption part of it. What would you say the low was and when did you start the rise?
Verna: I would say…
Frank: The lowest of low that you met…
Verna: Yeah before we get to that part, I’m going to make a statement.
Verna: Yeah, I just want to say… I was in the LGBT, in that lifestyle. Being in that lifestyle, I just want to say that when I was in that lifestyle, like the gay lifestyle like that…
Frank: Meaning you yourself, you were a… a lesbian? Or you were—
Verna: Sometimes that I was a bisexual— sometimes, yes… and so I just want to say with that lifestyle like that too, for a lot of people that’s into it or they may think that being… well for a guy, is a whole bunch of different from being for a woman. It is because of the genitals but the relationship for as a person feeling or how they feel towards you, I just want to talk domestic violence for a second… that domestic violence can pop off just as much as it does in relationship with for men and women in heterosexual relationships.
Frank: So same sex relationships can be—
Verna: As violent…
Frank: Got you, got you. And what compelled you to want to say that right now?
Verna: I felt like it because I think that some people feels as though that if they don’t be in a relationship or if a guy did it, it’s something different about being if for female and that they are safe if you will… but violence can pop off at any time. I just wanted to say that.
Frank: So that kind of touches on… what? Nancy was kind of correcting me when I said “What made you better?” and in some ways I hear you saying you weren’t better.
Nancy: She was just different.
Verna: Yes, different.
Frank: So Nancy, you nailed. Thank you. You said you had a hundred girls, twenty guys. What did the guys do?
Verna: Oh the guys, they were getting money as well. They did the same thing that we women did. They were going… do parties and they would drive the women’s car and they would… have sex with the women if [unclear].
Frank: But only women? They were only having sex with women?
Verna: Well some of the guys that I know were the ones that was on the low, low… you know… doubles to me now. But I’m just not saying it for the ones that was with other women. And I’m sure that there were certain times if they wanted to be with another man that they were for another man as another man as well because sometimes, the men would buy them stuff just like the lady would buy them stuff.
Frank: Okay. We’re talking with Verna Massdin, former madam, stripper and street pharmacist turned evangelist. She now uses her story to enlighten young people on the darker side of street life, behind all the cash, crowds, bling and buzz. Verna, please tell our listeners what you’re up to and how they can find you.
Verna: I’m up to a lot of things these days. I’m down at… [Unclear] Plat Parenthood, some days with different believers and this pro life… we’re down to talk to the women and men. They come down there to want to abort their babies for some reason. We’re just down there to just try to love [unclear] to encourage them that they have of options beside abortions and that [unclear] is a human being at the day of conception. I also volunteer different food pantries throughout the city and stuff like that. I’m an ordain evangelist and I go to the hospital and the nursing homes. I’m down there with the homeless. I go down to Bum Park and I take them food stuff down there and I do campaigns for the youth where I’m there with the youth and the [unclear] come too… and I sit there and I talk to them about some of the acronyms that they use to communicate that their parents might not be savvy about… I talk to them about sex and things like that… and I talk to them about purity and try to keep themself pure… and I talk to them about being in a relationships and they might get date-raped and stuff like that… I talked to them about real topics that they may not necessarily want to talk to their parents about.
Frank: What’s your number one—what’s your number one advice for avoiding date-rape?
Verna: Well, y number one advice would be not to go out with someone you don’t know and a lot of times, people do a lot of things on social media and I just would not go out to meet no one by myself. I will take someone with me. The guy might feel ohhh it’s a drag but I would take someone with me and I would give that person their name and phone number and the information, maybe I’d take a picture of the house. Atleast you can find that person f something go wrong because I got date-raped years ago… [unclear] date-rape, I went out to own a job interview. And the guy tell me to come to… I didn’t know. I went to the guy’s house and I got in and the guy locked the door and raped me right down the couch. So you have to have [unclear] these days. Adults as well as teenagers so you would just know… but my book is—they can find me on Facebook. It’s “VernaPimpingtoPreaching Massdin” and I’m also—
Frank: Underscore Massdin, right?
Verna: No, just space.
Frank: Space? Okay.
Verna: Yeah, just space Massdin… and… my book, you can get my book at BarnesandNoble.com, TapePublishing.com or Amazon.com.
Nancy: And the book title?
Verna: it’s “Stripped: An Exotic Dancer’s Journey to God.”
Frank: Nice. What did you learn about men? What have you learned about men over the years?
Verna: I learned that sitting down critiquing men was very interesting because like I was sharing to Nancy, a lot of times doing some of the parties, these guys would be like “I love her, I love her, I love her…” and then at the strip party trying to get sex, but they would all “I love her, I’ma marry her tomorrow,” like that but… they want to get sex. Not every guy wanted sex. Some guys just want to look at the girls… but what I learned is that you have to love yourself and not necessarily look towards another individual to love you… because sometimes people can say love, love is just more than word, it’s an action. And so I found out from a lot other men, they wanted to have affairs on their fiancés but I learned that if their female had an affair, they will flip out. It was always, okay so it’s okay if I do it but if she does it, I’m not going to stand for that.
Frank: What’s your advice on that? Or do you have anything to say to that?
Verna: I would say knowing who you are is a priority because you have to become to be but your own flesh… and so if you’re in a relationship with someone, and they see that it’s nothing wrong for them to go outside of the relationship and if you go outside with—they’re going to end it. It is a double standard.
Nancy: Verna, you have not over your years and your experiences. You have not lost your affinity for men. You have not lost your love for them.
Frank: In fact, you’re married.
Verna: Yeah, I am. I mean, yes. I love my grand sugars, I have four grand sugar males, boys and one daughter. So yeah, I love them. I’m married. I… I thank God for men because we need them. They are supposed to be the head of the house so we need them for the different things that they are designed to do for us to have like some more support to pray for the family. They work along with you too. I like—I thank god for men.
Nancy: Yeah, I think that’s powerful that you have not come out of the other side of this.
Frank: Whether disrespect or—
Nancy: Yeah or tarnished in any way. Yeah. Stuff happen.
Verna: Yeah, I know… I mean I just [unclear] a lot of stuff along the way.
Nancy: Right, right.
Verna: And I’m happy for all the things I’ve learned. I’m grateful that I survived it, I’m glad that I can write a book about it, do a movie on, I can talk about it, and for all the women that I knew and know now that make it out… I mean, several of my friends got killed. They didn’t come out of that, one of them I had to preach their funeral few years ago. The other one was shot, and she’s paralyzed in a wheel chair. The other one was stabbed to death in front of her 8 year old son. So I’m thankful to god that the Lord brought me through it to be able to share and then share with the different people that I come and contact with. They even in the body of Christ or not, they look for certain signs if a brother is on a down low and we’d teach women that if a man is [unclear], if a man how they can just see the signs so they educate—
Frank: What are the sings?
Verna: Sometimes the signs, there are body language, sometimes it’s eyes, sometimes it’s the way they stand. It’s just different signs that women just should be aware of and I talked about in my book that stop being gullible. If you see a little suitcase in the closet, don’t ignore it. Open it up and see what’s in there because some of the guys would come to the brothel. That was [unclear] right then. They would have a suitcase and then the suitcase it would be belts and handcuffs and all types of things like that and they would want to be treated like a woman, but they were married to men.
Frank: And when you say “Don’t ignore it,” what if you opened it? What if she does open it? What advice might you give her then and she sees that he’s got handcuffs or whatever?
Verna: Right. Into herself, she don’t confront her right away, she can just say “Well it’s something I need to think about more than what I’m thinking about,” I need to look at other avenues that he may be venturing out on that he might not have told me. And she don’t have to confront him before her own self just on sleep on, just keep her eyes open and just pay attention and go back to her computer and look at his history, see the things that he’s pulling up online… stuff like that… see the type of people that he’s being around… and the type of know where he’s acting and standing and his body language… but as women, we stand like—when we’re like this, so if a guy is standing the certain kind of way, most of the time you know that’s not how he really is… you know, a man really stands.. so it’s just certain things you should observe…
Nancy: Unnatural gestures…
Verna: Unnatural gestures…
Frank: What do you believe to be the keys to your survival?
Verna: I give god and his son Jesus Christ all the glory and all the honor because I got converted at a strip party 14 years ago myself while I was stripping and I had said that morning that I was going to pimp until I’m 60 and I would treat some cognac, that’s more than a bone, a blunt and I was just having some a little good time… and the Lord spoke through me to the men and I was saying I was coming out of this. I ran into the bathroom and sit on the toilet, I said well maybe it’s the Hennessy and it’s the blunt. As I sat down the toilet, the Lord spoke to me in audible voice and told me to come out from among them and be separated, so going on 15 years I’m out.
Frank: Wow. That is the story, really?
Verna: That is the story.
Charlotte: So did you immediately start shutting down your business after that experience or…?
Verna: No. It was a great struggle. I was sharing with Nancy this morning. It was a great struggle. I mean, I just didn’t walk out like that. It was hard because I was making so much money—
Frank: How much money? At the peak, how much money would you say you had in the coffers?
Verna: I had money in 3 different banks. So… I mean, I don’t know how much money I was really making.
Frank: Got it, got it.
Nancy: Enough to say give me a minute Lord.
Verna: Yeah, and that’s what I said… And that’s exactly what I said. We going to come… I said, “Ugh come on… you cannot be calling me now. I’m on the top of my game.” I struggled and I tried to reason with God how I’m taking care all of these women and their kids… you know what I mean? Well I struggled and I said, “Well I’ll stop selling weed.” Then I said, I’ll stop drinking, then I’ll stop…” little by little but it took me a moment to come out. When I finally made up my mind that I was going to come out, it was a real struggle… because you see, the devil’s a shirt with no back… he sure to begin with fame, make sure you don’t know how to get out.
Verna: And I was sitting in my mom’s chair, just sitting there just thinking about it and I said, “Okay, I’m coming out.” And I began to raise my hand—but it was the hardest things to do to get my hand up to surrender. Every time I just [unclear] pressing on my shoulder like some little imps trying to hold my hands down and I finally said “I surrender.”
Jeff: This is going to sound odd… or maybe not. In my opinion, there are a lot of similarities between pimping and preaching… and in some respects, religion gets as bad a rap as some of the illegal activities you’ve mentioned.
Jeff: How have you used your experiences as a business woman / pimp to your preaching and talking to the masses about positive things?
Verna: Well thank you for that question. I was talking to—
Frank: That’s the first question she’s thanked anybody for… That’s like wha— she’s saying…
Nancy: It’s on the paper.
Frank: She’s saying that was a homerun.
Nancy: Yes… Because it’s illegitimate inquiry.
Jeff: I get a lot of gratitude for my pimping questions…
Verna: I thank God for all the questions. All the questions are nice but that question is good because I was talking to one of the apostles yesterday about that and how I use it’s like when I preach, I just talk about real stuff. I use the word of god and I preach the word of God but at the beginning and then at the end it depends on which way the Lord use me.
Bring it to the [unclear / attaches] so they can be aware. So they can be aware of things like that are really happening. They happen in the church as well. You know what I’m saying? People are getting raped sometimes in some churches. Sometimes little kids go to the bare from it, it may be a predator that came to church that’s not there to serve God. Just came in the house today. And they’re not paying attention, they might follow the kid to the bathroom and rape the child in the church.
I also inform them about real stuff to talk to youth about so they won’t have to be out there in the world system and hear about it. I inform them—well, mostly everything I’ve been through so they’ll just know because we don’t teach you to [unclear] house of God. They’re going to learn it out in the street and they’re going to go out there in a bad way.
Verna: So I want them to know.
Frank: How’d you meet your husband?
Verna: I met my husband at the gym. I went to the gym to workout and I met him. I see him when we [unclear] and we went on one date and then five days later, we got married.
Frank: That’s a whole another interview.
Frank: What does he think about your history? What does he say about it?
Verna: He’s just like, he’s excited because like… preaching, I said, “We buy this in the body of Christ at some things.”
Verna: So we all [unclear / at] somethings and so he’s excited about it. He supports me, he comes out and I have to preach. If he’s not working and he’s excited about my life and he’s just happy that I’m bold like I am to share it and I help him too because—
Frank: Me too, I’m happy that you’re bold like you are to share.
Verna: Thank you, Frank.
Frank: You got a book that you recommend? Not the one that you’ve written… of course, we want everybody to—all the listeners to get that one. Any other book that you found to be just a good book that you want folks to check out?
Verna: Yeah, the Bible… and I think that’s the number one book a lot of times people try to like toss it aside or certain type of what was in the bible, everything, every situation that you go through down here in this life, if you pull it up in the word of God, it’ll give you answer to it. It’ll help you with it and it’s kind of not funny but the same [unclear] blunts on is the same [unclear] weed on the bowl is tripping man.
Nancy: You know, it’s funny that you say that. I remember years ago, hearing a radio announcer say… e says, “You know? You’re sleeping on the bible.” He said “The bible is nothing but line after line of human—what did he call it—nature.” Yeah. He says it’s the chronicle of human nature. He said, “And there’s no situation in there that you can find yourself in that isn’t in there.”
Nancy: And we call it a book but it’s really a library, 66 books in there.
Verna: Exactly. It’s just like with King Saul. You know, King Saul of Solomon. He had 700 wives and 300 concubines. So that’s the same life that I was living but… you understand what I’m saying? With all the men—it’s kind of the same thing… but then you come to a point in your life that you have to make a change.
Frank: Speaking of, how were your relationships—I mean, how did you get sexually satisfied during those periods of time? Because it sounded as though you were more so a broker but you haven’t really mentioned just where you were in the relationship world on your own.
Verna: Well I was… was in a relationship and who have I dated, when they met me, I let them know that I was… running my industry and it won’t get in the way by no means necessary… And so, they embraced it but after a while, it’s like they had a hard time trying to deal with it but I cared about the guys that I was involved with at that time. When I wanted to get rid of them, I was tired of them and I would just say “I don’t want to see you no more. After we’re finished being together like a man and a woman intimately, and I was telling them they can leave, shut the door and the white guy’s like “What? Leave and shut the door? You just put me out?” I’m like, “Yeah.” Because guys been doing to women for years so it felt kind of good at that time to just finish having sex and just tell him, “ball out.”
Frank: We’ve been talking with former madam, stripper, street pharmacist and now evangelist, Verna Massdin. Lat time Verna, please tell our listeners what you’re up to and how they can find you.
Verna: Yes, I’m on Facebook and my Facebook name is “VernaPimpingtoPreaching Massdin”. I’m on Instagram, @star54_mylife. I’m on LinkedIn, Verna Massdin and you can purchase my book at www.TapePublishing.com, www.amazon.com, www.BarnesandNoble.com, and Jay’s Bookstore down in Lexington Market—
Frank: In Baltimore.
Verna: In Baltimore.
Nancy: And the book title?
Verna: And the book title is Stripped: An Exotic Dancer’s Journey to God and if you want to, you can call Frank Love. Let’s see [unclear] come here.
Nancy: Oh my goodness…
Frank: Along today’s journey, we’ve discussed developing and understanding of men and how Verna did it, sex trafficking and organized crime as a female leader… Not to mention, we also discussed redemption—and that’s the biggest piece of our discussion.
Frank: I hope you’ve learned as much as I’ve learned talking with Verna Massdin about her former life—life as a madam, stripper, street pharmacist and now evangelist.
As always, it’s my wish for you to walk away from this conversation with a heaping helping of useful information that I hope you create a relation that’s as loving and accepting as possible.
Let us know what you think of today’s show at facebook.com/relationshipflove, on Twitter at @mrfranklove or at franklove.com. If you’re listening via Blog Talk Radio, make sure you like us there and if via iTunes, make sure you subscribe so that you can receive each week’s show.
This is Frank love.
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